Author Topic: Tracing past Scotland to Ireland  (Read 5893 times)

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Tracing past Scotland to Ireland
« Reply #36 on: Wednesday 02 May 18 00:40 BST (UK) »
I've just looked up the death certificates for older children Mary Jane b. 1829 & Elizabeth b. 1831 they both list Maria as their mother. Interestingly, on Elizabeth's DC her parents are listed as Crosgrove NOT Crossgrove... not sure if this is just a spelling mistake as on Mary Jane's its Crossgrove
[/quote]
Accuracy of information on a death certificate depends on what the informant knew about the deceased.
As Ruskie said, one letter s is neither here nor there. Spellings weren't standardised until late 19th century. Chief Registrar of Ireland wrote a report on the topic around turn of the century. He gave 1 example of a man registering his brother's death. The informant signed the form using a different spelling of the surname from the one he'd given for his deceased brother. When this was pointed out to him he explained that he and his brother always spelt their surnames differently.  :)
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Offline Kirsty Edwards

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Re: Tracing past Scotland to Ireland
« Reply #37 on: Wednesday 02 May 18 03:27 BST (UK) »
Another interesting turn of events,

I purchased Thomas DC (youngest child) and it appears his mother is not Maria but Elizabeth (maiden name absent). It does not say he is illegitimate, nor does it say on David's DC that he remarried - Maria outlived him too.

This is odd, as David's mother is also Elizabeth with her maiden also missing.

I think I'm missing here but can't join the odds.

Thomas is listed as David's son in the census but could he infact he David's much younger brother? David's father was a farmer though not a weaver - perhaps he was both...
Who was named as father on Thomas' birth certificate? The mother Elizabeth may have been David & Maria's daughter Elizabeth. According to a census on which Elizabeth and Thomas appear together she was about 15 years older than him. He might have been brought up as David & Maria's son and may even have believed he was their son.
Farmers and weavers. When weaving was a cottage industry before it moved into factories, some men would be farmers and weavers. Weaving was done in winter when there was less work on the farm. Wife and children would help.

Thomas was born before 1850 unfortunately. What census is that? I don't have it.

That's great information to know as I didn't know that

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Tracing past Scotland to Ireland
« Reply #38 on: Wednesday 02 May 18 15:30 BST (UK) »

I purchased Thomas DC (youngest child) and it appears his mother is not Maria but Elizabeth (maiden name absent). It does not say he is illegitimate, nor does it say on David's DC that he remarried - Maria outlived him too.

This is odd, as David's mother is also Elizabeth with her maiden also missing.

Who was named as father on Thomas' birth certificate? The mother Elizabeth may have been David & Maria's daughter Elizabeth. According to a census on which Elizabeth and Thomas appear together she was about 15 years older than him. He might have been brought up as David & Maria's son and may even have believed he was their son.

Thomas was born before 1850 unfortunately. What census is that? I don't have it.


1851 census in your reply #13 on page 2 of this thread. Elizabeth was aged 20 and Thomas was 5. What was Thomas's relationship to head of household on this census?
1861 census Thomas was 14. Elizabeth was not included in this household.
So who was stated as the father of Thomas according to his death certificate?
Thomas's baptism should show his mother.
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Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Tracing past Scotland to Ireland
« Reply #39 on: Wednesday 02 May 18 16:00 BST (UK) »
I notice that David's occupation on 1841 census was transcribed as "Cotton H L W". (Reply #13)
H L W = hand loom weaver. This suggests to me that he was working at home.
1851 David's occupation was down as weaver.
1861 cotton weaver.
As someone else said, linen weavers from Ireland moved to the Maybole area for work. A street in Maybole was known as "Weavers' Row". Kirkmichael section of an Ayrshire directory includes a man who was a weaver's agent.
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Offline Kirsty Edwards

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Re: Tracing past Scotland to Ireland
« Reply #40 on: Wednesday 02 May 18 17:25 BST (UK) »


1851 census in your reply #13 on page 2 of this thread. Elizabeth was aged 20 and Thomas was 5. What was Thomas's relationship to head of household on this census?
1861 census Thomas was 14. Elizabeth was not included in this household.
So who was stated as the father of Thomas according to his death certificate?
Thomas's baptism should show his mother.
[/quote]

It says Thomas is his Son but perhaps he is either his stepson or grandchild??  David is stated as his father on his DC and Elizabeth no last name as mother (attached).

ANOTHER twist .. I've looked at Elizabeth's DC and it has James as her father NOT David but Maria is still her Mother.

I wonder what's going on?!

Offline ThrelfallYorky

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Re: Tracing past Scotland to Ireland
« Reply #41 on: Wednesday 02 May 18 17:40 BST (UK) »
I don't suppose it could be the muddling together of the lineage and children on two closely related couples living in close proximity? A similar confusion I had turned out to be just that.
Threlfall (Southport), Isherwood (lancs & Canada), Newbould + Topliss(Derby), Keating & Cummins (Ireland + lancs), Fisher, Strong& Casson (all Cumberland) & Downie & Bowie, Linlithgow area Scotland . Also interested in Leigh& Burrows,(Lancashire) Griffiths (Shropshire & lancs), Leaver (Lancs/Yorks) & Anderson(Cumberland and very elusive)

Offline Kirsty Edwards

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Re: Tracing past Scotland to Ireland
« Reply #42 on: Wednesday 02 May 18 22:33 BST (UK) »
I don't suppose it could be the muddling together of the lineage and children on two closely related couples living in close proximity? A similar confusion I had turned out to be just that.

It' likely but I doubt it there are two many of the same names on certificates. Also cros(s)grove is uncommon in that area at the time

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Tracing past Scotland to Ireland
« Reply #43 on: Thursday 03 May 18 01:21 BST (UK) »
I don't suppose it could be the muddling together of the lineage and children on two closely related couples living in close proximity? A similar confusion I had turned out to be just that.
That's a possibility. Have you traced Thomas and Elizabeth back through every census ? They should both be on 1911 and 1901 census. Have you found their marriages? Have you looked for similar people and eliminated them? One thing to keep in mind is that some people married their in-laws or cousins, so the same surnames crop up in a family. I have 2 lines where a woman's father, brother and husband all had same forename and surname. It happened twice in a generation in one line!
Another explanation is that informant of the death simply made a mistake. This may have happened with Eilizabeth's death certificate. David Crossgrove had been dead for 40 years when Elizabeth died. Elizabeth's daughter may have been uncertain of his 1st name or remembered it incorrectly when registering the death. The father of Maria Crossgrove on her death certificate was James Broadley. Perhaps Maria Whyte confused her grandfather's name with that of her GGF.
If Thomas of the 1914 death certificate was same Thomas who was on 1851 & 1861 census at Crosshill as son of David & Maria it's possible he was their grandson. Putting grandfather's name on documents was common with illegitimate children.
You could really do with marriage and baptism certificates. If Thomas was illegitimate there may have been a note in the parish register.


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