Author Topic: Copyright and Irish Census/BMD Records  (Read 2093 times)

Offline QuickDraw

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Copyright and Irish Census/BMD Records
« on: Friday 20 April 18 01:18 BST (UK) »
I see a lot of family history books published (and for sale) by genealogy hobbyists which include images of Irish census and BMD records. Are they violating UK copyright laws?

Offline Rosinish

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Re: Copyright and Irish Census/BMD Records
« Reply #1 on: Friday 20 April 18 03:17 BST (UK) »
I can't believe you are asking this on a site which is mainly for genealogy & has guidelines of it's own for use of the site i.e. what can/cannot be posted...

Maybe you need to contact another authority as I'm unsure this site is the place for your query?

Edit to add...

I don't think anyone can really answer your question without knowing full details i.e. a link/reference to your concerns?

I'm more interested in why it's such a concern to you especially if you're 'into' genealogy  ???

I'd be glad of the link though as it may help myself & others with our Irish lines  ;D

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline QuickDraw

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Re: Copyright and Irish Census/BMD Records
« Reply #2 on: Friday 20 April 18 05:53 BST (UK) »
I can't believe you are asking this on a site which is mainly for genealogy & has guidelines of it's own for use of the site i.e. what can/cannot be posted...
My apologies for asking an irrelevant question. Will look elsewhere for an answer.

Offline Sinann

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Re: Copyright and Irish Census/BMD Records
« Reply #3 on: Friday 20 April 18 07:43 BST (UK) »
Not sure they would be violating UK copyright laws, although the UK collected the information in the first place I think as the information is held by Irish bodies now it would be Irish copyright laws.
Obviously Northern Ireland hold the same information but I guess it would depend on where you sourced the information.
Looking at the various websites it's difficult to find any information on copyright but I think they are saying you can use the information as long as it is not for commercial use.
You must contact them for commercial use.
Irish Genealogy has the BMDs
https://www.irishgenealogy.ie/en/site-usage-policy
National Archives has the Censuses
http://www.nationalarchives.ie/site-usage-policy/
The NLI are the clearest in regards copyright of the Parish Registers images.
https://registers.nli.ie/help

I think the basic rule is if you intend to sell something that you must get permission.
As a purchaser would you know if permission was sought or not?


Offline Guy Etchells

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Re: Copyright and Irish Census/BMD Records
« Reply #4 on: Friday 20 April 18 07:54 BST (UK) »
We cannot answer such a general question as copyright breach depends on specific circumstances which requires detailed information.

My understanding of Republic of Ireland copyright is as follows.

Any work created by any officer or employee of the Irish Government or State is protected by Government copyright, which lasts fifty years from the end of the year in which the work is created.
This in effect means that any Republic of Ireland census falls out of copyright 50 years after it was taken (or to be on the safe side a couple of years after that to allow the information to be collated into its format).
I should also point out that Ireland has a very permissive re-use policy for government (and state sponsored) copyright material since 2005 meaning it is very easy to get permission to licence such material.

Prior to the founding of the state in 1927 its laws were mainly the same as in the rest of the UK, since it’s joining the EU (1973) its laws are mainly covered by EU law.

Cheers
Guy
PS see the following page for information about Re-Use of Public Sector Information
http://www.rootschat.com/links/01lx4/
http://anguline.co.uk/Framland/index.htm   The site that gives you facts not promises!
http://burial-inscriptions.co.uk Tombstones & Monumental Inscriptions.

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Offline IMBER

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Re: Copyright and Irish Census/BMD Records
« Reply #5 on: Friday 20 April 18 09:19 BST (UK) »
I can't believe you are asking this on a site which is mainly for genealogy & has guidelines of it's own for use of the site i.e. what can/cannot be posted...
My apologies for asking an irrelevant question. Will look elsewhere for an answer.

No need to apologise. Rosinish clearly got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning. If you want to see a really irrelevant post then take a look at hers on the subject of Challenge 25.

Imber
Skewis (Wales and Scotland), Ayers (Maidenhead, Berkshire), Hildreth (Berkshire)

Offline QuickDraw

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Re: Copyright and Irish Census/BMD Records
« Reply #6 on: Friday 20 April 18 13:17 BST (UK) »
Thank you to everyone for your thoughtful replies (and to IMBER for confirming my suspicions... perhaps a change of meds would help  ::)?).

While I am quite well-informed about copyright infringement in general, I find the subject very murky when it comes to publishing a book of ones family history with images pertaining to things like BMD transcriptions (not reproduction of original certificates), census records, extracts from tithe applotment books, etc.

 Perhaps the clearest statement from a government agency I have found on this side of the pond comes from a Q&A in the publication "Reproduction of birth, death and marriage certificates" by the the National Archives (https://goo.gl/61h6J8).

Q. I want to publish some certificates in a book I’m writing. Can I do this and do I need to get anyone’s permission before I publish?
A: The layout of all certificates are protected by Crown Copyright, so if you are publishing these in a book or online publication you should acknowledge Crown Copyright (you don’t need to do this if you’re just placing them on Facebook or similar). You do not need to approach GRO or The National Archives for permission. But do bear in mind that if any of the certificates relate to living individuals you need to consider the Data Protection Act provisions above and make sure you have their permission to publish.

No mention of "commerical use". Does the same apply for other types of government records commonly used in family history (estate records, census returns, applotment books, Griffiths Valuation)? Does the Republic of Ireland have a different policy?

Using the links kindly provided by Sinann, I will write the government agencies directly and see what they have to say.

Thanks once again.

Offline Maiden Stone

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Re: Copyright and Irish Census/BMD Records
« Reply #7 on: Friday 20 April 18 21:15 BST (UK) »
Hello QuickDraw. I'm pleased  that you were not put off by the first reply to your genuine enquiry. I'm also relieved, especially as I see that you are not a long-term user of RootsChat, unlike all the other responders.
Thanks for the information in your reply #6. Thanks also to Sinann and  Guy for the information they provided.
Cowban

Offline heywood

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Re: Copyright and Irish Census/BMD Records
« Reply #8 on: Friday 20 April 18 22:40 BST (UK) »
An interesting thread re copyright infringement as the publishing of family histories and memoirs is becoming more popular. Thank you for raising this.
Whilst not quite the same, I published  a family history report online about a relative who had died in WW1. I wrote to two agencies re the use of photographs from their archives and was just asked
to acknowledge these in the report.

I thought that Rosinish was making the point that information and documents (snippets really) are regularly posted on Rootschat and by asking about the issue it was drawing attention to this. However, as she pointed out there are specific guidelines to cover this but I sometimes see that these are not adhered to.
It just demonstrates how we interpret posts differently. You and Imber obviously got a different impression.  :(
Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk