James Murphy - Horwich / Aspull / Wigan / Bolton

[PAK]

Here's what I know so far:
•   James Murphy, son of Patrick (1852-1934)and Bridget (1857-1899).
•   Born 25.11.1890
•   1891 census aged 3 months with parents at Chadwicks Yard, off Ratcliffe Road in Aspull.
•   1901 aged 9 at 63 Curteis Street, Horwich.
•   1911 Patrick and two of his sons (i.e. Thomas and James) have not been found in 1911 and the 3 daughters were at a Catholic Girls Home in Bolton. However, in 1914, he was thought to be living in one of the "season" streets (Spring, Summer, Autumn or Winter Street) in Horwich – probably Winter Street.

7.12.1912 James married Elizabeth Ann Longley (b 7.11.1893) at St Edmund’s church in Eccles. She was born in Horwich, and worked in the cardroom of a cotton mill in 1911, living with her parents at 39 Winter Street. I checked Freebmd and there are no children recorded as Murphy, mother nee Longley.

There is a family story that Patrick’s two sons, John and James Murphy, were both killed in World War I within a fortnight of each other and are commemorated on the war memorial at Horwich. But this only shows one “J.Murphy” although there is as yet no trace of James beyond his marriage in 1912. I know that John was killed in action on 17.9.1914.

So the questions are
1) what happened to James after 1911?
2) if he died, what happened to Elizabeth?

I've scoured as many sources as I can but found no answers. possibly because it is such a common name, so if he/they moved away from Lancashire it becomes very difficult to track him/them down. My gut feeling is that he was killed in the war but war deaths are usually well commemorated so it's odd that I can't find any mention.

Any info or advice gratefully received. Except for "Give up", which has already crossed my mind! But this is for my wife's elderly aunt and I am hoping to report to her as a birthday surprise in July.

[Maiden Stone]

Is Elizabeth not on 1939 register?

[Maiden Stone]

Eileen Murphy birth registered 1915 Horwich, mother's maiden name Longley. (Lancashire BMD)

[hol]

Hello
Have you discarded the James Murphy b1891 lodging with Charles Dixon and family on 1911 census in Horwich.
Lee

[PAK]

Thanks for the suggestions.
Lee - Ancestry omitted James Murphy lodging with the Dixons, but I have now spotted him on Findmypast. Not entirely sure if this entry is mine, as it says he was born in Leigh, but there is no other entry to match this one in 1901 or 1891 so it's my best bet.
Maiden Stone - I have now added Eileen to my chart. She wasn't on Freebmd and I usually check Lancsbmd also but must have missed out this time.
Having said that, this means an addition to my list of queries, which now reads :
1) what happened to James after 1911?
2) if he died, what happened to Elizabeth?
3) what happened to Eileen? No obvious marriage or death record found (yet).
There is an Eileen born 1915 in Manchester in 1939 but father James (Joseph) born 1886 and not 1890, plus other family members do not match. I still cling to the feeling that he was killed in action anyway but nothing definite and there were so many James Murphys slaughtered that it is not easy to pinpoint one.

If anyone has further info, I'd be grateful but it's starting to look like this will be unresolved.

[Maiden Stone]

A lot of births on Lancashire BMD don't have mother's maiden name on index so there may have been more births to the couple. Mother's maiden names have been added recently for some districts and periods. Eileen's birth may have been among them so that might be why you missed it.
Baptisms at R.C. church in Horwich on LANOPC are too early for children of the marriage.
I assume you've searched for a 2nd marriage for Elizabeth under married name and maiden name?
 If Elizabeth was a householder she would have qualified to vote from November 1923 when she was 30. If she wasn't a householder she would have had to wait until 1928 when all women over 21 were allowed to vote. Do you know if her parents were alive and where they were at these times in case she was living with them? What about other family members?
If Elizabeth was a war widow she may have received a pension.
Btw I've seen Murphy spelled or transcribed as "Murfy".

[PAK]

I haven’t replied further until now because I have been trying to find out as much as I can along the lines suggested – for which, many thanks. Sadly, I’m not much further forward.
I assume you've searched for a 2nd marriage for Elizabeth b1893 under married name and maiden name?
   Checked for marriages of Elizabeth Murphy between 1914 and 1939. Problem is there are many, so restricted to those in the Wigan / Horwich area. Found four possibles but all eventually discarded.
   I looked for marriages and deaths of Elizabeth Longley but there was only one and that was in a part of Lancashire many miles away - and where there are others of that name already there.
   I do know her exact birth date so used that to search for any Elizabeth born 7.11.1893 in Lancashire. However, when I checked Freebmd none of the maiden names matched.
   I also looked in the 1939 register for Elizabeth Ann born 1893 in Horwich. There were none, but there were some Elizabeth, listed as Cakes(Davenport), Case, Fairbrother, Kershaw, Watmough. I cross-checked marriages in Freebmd and Lancsbmd for each of these surnames married to an Elizabeth but found nothing that was either Murphy, Longley or anything like it.

What about other family members?
Her parents were John Smith Longley (born c1868, died 1942) and Eliza Jane nee Cooper ( born c1872 but died 1916). I searched for her father who fortunately has a fairly distinctive name, but he’s not on the 1939 register nor have I found him on any electoral rolls, though of course many of them are not online.He is on some family trees in Ancestry and I looked at them even though they are far from 100% reliable. However, there is nothing beyond her marriage to James Murphy in any of them.
I haven't yet looked for her siblings but that's on my "To Do" list"

If Elizabeth was a war widow she may have received a pension.
How can I check that?

Btw I've seen Murphy spelled or transcribed as "Murfy". Yes, worth a try but no James.

I have found a possible death - Elizabeth Ann Murphy died 1916 in Openshaw aged 22. But I have no more information on that, and there is another Elizabeth Ann Murphy (born 1893) in Lancashire in 1911.

Unless anyone has any bright ideas - or even brighter definite information! - I will now start to look at Elizabeth Ann's siblings, also their daughter Eileen (also seems to be poorly recorded if at all).

I've also come across some references in a Genes Reunited search to 8 results for James Murphy in "Armed Foirces and Conflict". Not sure how best to pursue them.

And now I think I'll have a lie down ......

[Maiden Stone]

I don't know about war widows' pensions. If no one replies on here I suggest you ask on the Armed Forces board.