Official Death Record Missing

[macwil]

Ralph Foster Berry was born in 1892 to John and Ellen  Berry (neé Bullough) in Wigan, Lancashire, England.

In 1911 Census (Class: RG14; Piece: 22994 schedule 175) his parents record 6 children born, 2 still living and 4 died. I have accounted for five of those children but not Ralph.

I have found his birth registration on GRO and LancsBMD but cannot find his death.
I have found a record (on wiganworld) of his burial on 26 Aug 1893 plot E97 (a public grave) at Wigan Cemetery, Lower Ince, Wigan.

Any Ideas where I go from here appreciated.

TIA.
Malcolm.

[Rosinish]

Not sure if this will help but have you tried a search of his death with initial(s) only &/or a variant in his surname i.e. a mistranscription on index e.g. Burry/Benny 

Anything is possible I guess but it's an idea?

Could it also be possible he died elsewhere to where he was buried?

Just some thoughts?

Annie

[macwil]

Hi Annie,
Thank you for your suggestions.
I did try a search on FreeBMD for B*ry Ralph F and got a Ralph Frederick Bury died in 1954 aged 77 but I found his birth in the same area Epping in 1877. I haven't tried Benny, not even thought of it.

The place of death given in the burial record is in Wigan, 47 Byrom St. the family were at No. 35 in 1901 and 1911 Census.

Regards,
Malcolm.

[Rosinish]

Hi Malcolm,

I noticed there were 2 deaths with name John Berry...
I wonder if they have put the father's name in, in error as the 2 I saw were aged 1 

It may be worth a phone call to explain your trouble & a possible error?

Annie

[macwil]

Hi Annie,

I did think that there may have been an error somewhere but couldn't decide how to search it.
The possibility of his father's name being entered in error is a good possibility, I've heard of it happening in Births so it could happen in Deaths too.

Of the two records LancsBMD has one in sub-district of Pemberton and the other in Wigan. GRO will have them both in Wigan.
I'll have to consider who to contact, GRO Southport is possibly the best bet. I'm not sure if Wigan accept telephone enquiries.

Regards,
Malcolm.

[Rosinish]

Malcolm,

I think if you popped into your local Registry Office (assuming you're in England), explain your case with all the info. (references) i.e. his birth & burial along with the 2 aged 1 yr & you think there could be an error hence the reason you can't find him on the index, I think they would oblige by checking & of course be able to give his father's name & occ. as they won't give you the details i.e. you have to provide them with it.

I know my Registry Office (Scotland) has access online to BMDs but I don't know how it works in England?

Hope this solves it one way or another.

Annie

Add...It's also possible the informant themselves made the error i.e. not whoever indexed it?

[andrewalston]

Byrom St was in Poolstock, which, unfortunately, is on the border of Pemberton and central Wigan, so that doesn't narrow the choice down.

[macwil]

Hi Annie,

Yes , I am in England, Hereford to be precise, unfortunately the system in England works on local autonomy, so popping into Hereford Registrars' Office won't help and Wigan don't take telephone enquiries for old certs. Visits appear to be by appointment only, but I'm not certain about that, and as I'm now reliant on public transport a visit is unlikely.
John changed jobs between Census, 1891 he was a cotton spinner, in 1901/11 he was shopkeeper/grocer.


Hi Andew,
That is the problem. I thought I could solve it by looking at the certs I already have but of course Murphy intervened and I don't actually have any for Byrom St, despite having several ancestors living there over the years.



There are actually four records for deaths of John Berry in 1893 in Wigan. Comparing GRO with LancsBMD, although LancsBMD don't specify the quarter, the order appears to be the same, so the Pemberton one appears to be in Q2 and the Wigan one is Q3 the other two are Q4 and I think can be ruled out for other reasons. Ralph was buried 26th Aug, so I would think he died that month, I can't really envisage a burial being delayed at least two months which would be required if he was the one registered in Q2 (Pemberton).

I'll contact Southport and see what they say.

Thank you both for you interest.

I'll come back and let you know what happens.

Regards,
Malcolm.

[dawnsh]

The GRO at Southport isn't the most obliging of organisations to deal with. They will most probably politely suggest you put in an application for a death cert without the references, pay the £9.25 fee and wait 15 days for the results either by post if they do find a record or a refund if they don't.

This service though can be hit or miss and you can get a refund even if they do spot the potential record because something doesn't match up 'exactly' especially if the entry doesn't have the name you specifically are looking for but a variant of some sort.

Also the record may be available locally but may not have made its way into the GRO index through error or omission.

A phone call to a local register office is more likely to be successful as you get to speak to a human being who might be more sympathetic to your problem once you mention you have the burial, can name the parents and have noted there are several possible entries to consider.