Author Topic: Possible Gypsy Ancestry? HUTCHISON, Scotland  (Read 1106 times)

Offline Lana2017

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Possible Gypsy Ancestry? HUTCHISON, Scotland
« on: Tuesday 01 May 18 13:34 BST (UK) »
Hi guys,

I'm fairly new at this whole genealogy thing so apologies in advance  if I ask any silly questions!

I'm looking into possible gypsy / traveller heritage on my tree, it's a bit of a longshot but I figured worth investigating anyway. On Gedmatch Eurogenes K13 I score somewhat higher in South Asian and West Asian than the reference populations I am from (Scots and Irish). I have South Asian 1.64 and West Asian 7.06. Still low enough they could just be noise I think..?

Anyway, I got interested in possible gypsy heritage as I came across two sisters, Clementina and Ruby on my tree (I understand Clementina is an unusual name outside the traveller community). I looked around for traveller surnames in that branch but all I can find so far is Clementina's grandmother was Mary Anne Hutchison, which appears in the gypsy surname index.

Unfortunately I don't have much info on her other than that she married James Haywood and had a son, also James Haywood, in 1831 in Edinburgh. I haven't been able to trace the Hutchison line itself.

Any input or advice appreciated :)

Thanks!
I have a visual impairment which makes research difficult to pls forgive any silly questions :)
Hutchison - Midlothian
Dow & Gray - Ayrshire
McQuillan - Ballymena /  Donegal
Reilly - Cavan / Cork

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Online Steve G

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Re: Possible Gypsy Ancestry? HUTCHISON, Scotland
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 01 May 18 15:03 BST (UK) »
Lana; The Book Of Bob (Click the little house under my avatar) does indeed list Hutchinson as a name used, by Gypsys, of the Scottish Borders. 1891.

Hayward ~ close enough! ~ is listed 1841 - 1905, on and off, up and down the land.

So, yeppers, throw in a name like Clementina and I'd say it's a theory well worth examination  ;)

As I always point out though; One should work ones tree in the time honoured and orderly manner. Never decide, " Oh, look! An interesting possibility, back then. " and start chasing it from a random point in history.

Start with yeself and work back, with an open mind. All will be revealed  8)
GAITES (Alverstoke / Bath Pre 1850)
CURTIS (Portsmouth & 1800's Berkshire).
BURGE (Dorset, Somerset and Hampshire)
HUNTLEY (Dorset, Hampshire, Sussex, 'Surroundings')

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Offline Lana2017

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Re: Possible Gypsy Ancestry? HUTCHISON, Scotland
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 01 May 18 15:50 BST (UK) »
Hi Steve,
Thanks for the reply, that's really interesting! The name Haywood seems to change it's spelling a bit on my tree, sometimes it's Haywood sometimes it's Heywood, seems to be a common issue with these old records (or perhaps the name evolved).

A bit more info on this line of my tree to see if it helps:
- my great-great grandmother is Isabella Haywood (Clementina is her daughter)
- Isabella Haywood's father is James Haywood (born 1831), a candlemaker in Midlothian
- James Haywood's parents are James Haywood (born around 1811) and Mary Anne Hutchison

I haven't been able to get any further back. I don't see any evidence  of people travelling around / changing location a lot or of any traditional gypsy occupations but then I don't have much info so far :)
I have a visual impairment which makes research difficult to pls forgive any silly questions :)
Hutchison - Midlothian
Dow & Gray - Ayrshire
McQuillan - Ballymena /  Donegal
Reilly - Cavan / Cork

Online keyboard86

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Re: Possible Gypsy Ancestry? HUTCHISON, Scotland
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 01 May 18 18:30 BST (UK) »
Hi was James Haywood/Heywood married to a Mary in 1851 census occ Candle Maker b Edinburgh, Isabella/Isabell b 1852, as in 1861/72 an unlikely trade for a Gypsy being Fireman at Engine and 1871 Engineman?
Keyboard86
Pelly/Pelley/Kingsbury/Challis/Nalder/Rochester/Raydenbow

UK Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Online Steve G

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Re: Possible Gypsy Ancestry? HUTCHISON, Scotland
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 01 May 18 18:32 BST (UK) »
Lana; It's good to see ye aware of the Occupation angle  ;)

That's, often as not, a great pointer. " Candle Maker ", I must say, doesn't exactly jump out at one as a Gypsy occupation. (Though, I must say; I've turned a fair bit of income from doing just that! One has to be resourceful, at times  8))

Maybe the Haywood line is a false marker then? No matter. Find a Butcher and Baker and ye'll have a hell of a conversation piece!  ;D

No matter. As said; Inch ye way backwards. Rely on Facts that present themselves and are repeatedly proven beyond dispute. That will give ye a cast iron ancestry ye can rely on. What ever it may prove to be.

I must admit, I don't really know about the Gypsys of Scotland and the borders. I originate from as far south as it gets, while remaining dry. So, my own 'rules' may not even apply to those people?

Again; Just follow the available, provable, information. Keep an open mind. See what come out in the wash.
GAITES (Alverstoke / Bath Pre 1850)
CURTIS (Portsmouth & 1800's Berkshire).
BURGE (Dorset, Somerset and Hampshire)
HUNTLEY (Dorset, Hampshire, Sussex, 'Surroundings')

Offline Lana2017

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Re: Possible Gypsy Ancestry? HUTCHISON, Scotland
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 01 May 18 20:42 BST (UK) »
Quote
Hi was James Haywood/Heywood married to a Mary in 1851 census occ Candle Maker b Edinburgh, Isabella/Isabell b 1852, as in 1861/72 an unlikely trade for a Gypsy being Fireman at Engine and 1871 Engineman?

Hi Keyboard86, yes I think we're talking about the same person, he was married to Mary and a Candle Maker in 1851 census then his daughter Isabella Haywood born in 1852. Are the fireman and engingeman occupations James as well but in later censues?

Quote
Maybe the Haywood line is a false marker then? No matter. Find a Butcher and Baker and ye'll have a hell of a conversation piece!

Yes it sounds like the Haywood link is a false marker due to the occupations... If I could  find Mary Hutchison's father that would be useful as I could see his occupation and whether that is a likely line to pursue. I've found a few Hutchison hawkers in Edinburgh in the 1800s but don't have info on Mary yet so difficult to make links (if there are any).
I have a visual impairment which makes research difficult to pls forgive any silly questions :)
Hutchison - Midlothian
Dow & Gray - Ayrshire
McQuillan - Ballymena /  Donegal
Reilly - Cavan / Cork

Online Steve G

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Re: Possible Gypsy Ancestry? HUTCHISON, Scotland
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 01 May 18 20:55 BST (UK) »
Mary Hutchison's father would be potential pay dirt!

Cutting it fine though, aren't we, with the date records became the norm? If ye could gather any Cert's around him? Brilliant!

Of course, her MC should give ye some idea of what he was up to, at that given point in time.

 That, of course, is something I'd be picking up as part of the natural process anyway.

Be interesting to see how this pans out. I like watching others dig  ;D
GAITES (Alverstoke / Bath Pre 1850)
CURTIS (Portsmouth & 1800's Berkshire).
BURGE (Dorset, Somerset and Hampshire)
HUNTLEY (Dorset, Hampshire, Sussex, 'Surroundings')

Online keyboard86

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Re: Possible Gypsy Ancestry? HUTCHISON, Scotland
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 01 May 18 21:51 BST (UK) »
James in 1881/91 is a Rubber Worker he looks to spend the majority of his life in St Cuthberts Midlothian, as does his Mother who especially stays around Semple Street, St Cuthberts as a Laundress.
This looks to be the family in 1841 census:-

James 50
Mary 40
James 11
Agnes 8
Thomas 5
Keyboard86

PS did Isabella say her father was a Candle Maker at marriage, did she marry a James Chisholm?
Pelly/Pelley/Kingsbury/Challis/Nalder/Rochester/Raydenbow

UK Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Lana2017

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Re: Possible Gypsy Ancestry? HUTCHISON, Scotland
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 02 May 18 13:47 BST (UK) »
Quote
Of course, her MC should give ye some idea of what he was up to, at that given point in time

Sorry I'm probably being dim but what's a MC?

Quote
James in 1881/91 is a Rubber Worker he looks to spend the majority of his life in St Cuthberts Midlothian, as does his Mother who especially stays around Semple Street, St Cuthberts as a Laundress.
This looks to be the family in 1841 census:-

James 50
Mary 40
James 11
Agnes 8
Thomas 5
Keyboard86

PS did Isabella say her father was a Candle Maker at marriage, did she marry a James Chisholm?

Yep, that's right she married a James Chisholm :) The transcript I have of her marriage  (on Ancestry) doesn't give a father's occupation but I have James Heywood (born 1831) listed as a Candlemaker from the 1851 census.
I have a visual impairment which makes research difficult to pls forgive any silly questions :)
Hutchison - Midlothian
Dow & Gray - Ayrshire
McQuillan - Ballymena /  Donegal
Reilly - Cavan / Cork