Author Topic: Will and Death date variations  (Read 3815 times)

Offline Syd R

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Will and Death date variations
« on: Friday 11 May 18 08:58 BST (UK) »
Hi All
Here is my problem I have located a marriage records of a Henry Rider in Essex dated 7 November 1745 (Copy held)
I have a copy of his Will signed and dated 14 May 1746 (copy held) it was proven after submission by his executor (wife) 15 July 1746 (Copy held)
The burial record on the National Burial Index (NBI) date is 9 March 1746 (Copy held)
The Parish Record date is 9 March 1745 (Copy held)
I accept the NBI could be a transcription error but I am in a quandary over the variation on the Will date as it is after his death.
Does any one have any ideas on possible causes or variation in dates could it be due to changes in calendars?
Any suggestions on solving problem appreciated

Syd R
Down Under

Offline pinefamily

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Re: Will and Death date variations
« Reply #1 on: Friday 11 May 18 11:11 BST (UK) »
Have you looked for another burial  for a Henry Rider? It is possible the burial you have found is for a son of your Henry Rider, unless there is an age given. If the will is dated 14 May 1746, and was proved 15 July 1746, then Henry died somewhere in between the two dates.
I am Australian, from all the lands I come (my ancestors, at least!)

Pine/Pyne, Dowdeswell, Kempster, Sando/Sandoe/Sandow, Nancarrow, Hounslow, Youatt, Richardson, Jarmyn, Oxlade, Coad, Kelsey, Crampton, Lindner, Pittaway, and too many others to name.
Devon, Dorset, Gloucs, Cornwall, Warwickshire, Bucks, Oxfordshire, Wilts, Germany, Sweden, and of course London, to name a few.

Offline arthurk

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Re: Will and Death date variations
« Reply #2 on: Friday 11 May 18 11:21 BST (UK) »
The first thing to do is to clarify some or all of the dates, with reference to the original documents.

Before 1752, New Years Day was 25 March, and this often causes confusion. For the period 25 March - 31 December, the year is the same whether in Old Style or New Style. A date between 1 January and 24 March would be in, say, 1724 Old Style, but 1725 New Style, and the best way to transcribe it is the unambiguous 1724/25. Unfortunately some databases seem not to accept dates in that format.

However, some transcriptions use Old Style without any conversion, and some convert it to New Style. No doubt some people seeing it in New Style without any explanation do a further conversion so it comes out a year later than it should.

In your case, where you say 'Copy held' does this mean you have a copy of the actual register, will etc, or just of someone's transcription? I think we need to be clear on this in order to work out what's going on, because even when the calendar change is taken into account, the dates you give don't make sense. The sequence you give is:
7 Nov 1745 - marriage
9 Mar 1745 - burial (1745/46 - appears to be in NBI as 1746)
14 May 1746 - will written
15 Jul 1746 - will proved
(And if the NBI was actually right about the burial and it was 1746/47, then the will would have been proved before he died.)

Is there somewhere we can see these documents online for ourselves? One possibility might be that a '5' has been mistranscribed as '6' (or vice versa).
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Bingley, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline pinefamily

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Re: Will and Death date variations
« Reply #3 on: Friday 11 May 18 11:24 BST (UK) »
Another way to confirm dates is whether Henry names his wife in his will.
I am Australian, from all the lands I come (my ancestors, at least!)

Pine/Pyne, Dowdeswell, Kempster, Sando/Sandoe/Sandow, Nancarrow, Hounslow, Youatt, Richardson, Jarmyn, Oxlade, Coad, Kelsey, Crampton, Lindner, Pittaway, and too many others to name.
Devon, Dorset, Gloucs, Cornwall, Warwickshire, Bucks, Oxfordshire, Wilts, Germany, Sweden, and of course London, to name a few.


Offline arthurk

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Re: Will and Death date variations
« Reply #4 on: Friday 11 May 18 11:43 BST (UK) »
Under current English law, marriage invalidates any will written before the marriage (unless, I believe, it is explicitly written in anticipation of marriage to a named spouse-to-be). I don't know what the situation would have been in 1745 or 1746 (or whatever).
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Bingley, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline pinefamily

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Re: Will and Death date variations
« Reply #5 on: Friday 11 May 18 11:46 BST (UK) »
I'm fairly certain it was different back then. Spouses weren't automatically heirs.
I am Australian, from all the lands I come (my ancestors, at least!)

Pine/Pyne, Dowdeswell, Kempster, Sando/Sandoe/Sandow, Nancarrow, Hounslow, Youatt, Richardson, Jarmyn, Oxlade, Coad, Kelsey, Crampton, Lindner, Pittaway, and too many others to name.
Devon, Dorset, Gloucs, Cornwall, Warwickshire, Bucks, Oxfordshire, Wilts, Germany, Sweden, and of course London, to name a few.

Offline arthurk

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Re: Will and Death date variations
« Reply #6 on: Friday 11 May 18 13:24 BST (UK) »
I'm fairly certain it was different back then. Spouses weren't automatically heirs.
This is actually morphing into a discussion on intestacy, and as far as I've been able to discover, in those cases wives wouldn't automatically inherit real estate, but they were entitled to a share of the personal estate.

This is based on "Wills and Other Probate Records" (The National Archives, 2004 edition). I haven't found it stated explicitly, but the book hints in one or two places that wills have always been voided by marriage.

In the current question, since there was a probate rather than an administration there must have been a valid will.
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Bingley, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline pinefamily

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Re: Will and Death date variations
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 12 May 18 00:23 BST (UK) »
I only suggested to look for mention of his wife to see if the will was written before or after the 7 Nov marriage, to help ascertain the timeline of dates. If you look above, you were the one who started questioning 18th century inheritance, to which it now seems you already know the answer.
I have not read the book you name, nor have I pored through the laws of the day, but my own experience of 18th century wills suggests otherwise.
I am Australian, from all the lands I come (my ancestors, at least!)

Pine/Pyne, Dowdeswell, Kempster, Sando/Sandoe/Sandow, Nancarrow, Hounslow, Youatt, Richardson, Jarmyn, Oxlade, Coad, Kelsey, Crampton, Lindner, Pittaway, and too many others to name.
Devon, Dorset, Gloucs, Cornwall, Warwickshire, Bucks, Oxfordshire, Wilts, Germany, Sweden, and of course London, to name a few.

Offline Syd R

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Re: Will and Death date variations
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 12 May 18 01:06 BST (UK) »
Hi All
Thanks for the input, additional info
The records relate to Henry Rider (Ryder) of Essex, England (Harlow and Epping) and are on the Essex Records office SEAX site some of wich can be viewed with subscription, may be eavailable elsewhere.
His wife Judith (Canham) was mentioned in his will as was the Executrix
Marriage Lic/Bonds  Reference D/AML1745/24 - 7 November 1745
Will - Reference D/AMW15/7/12 - 14 May 1746
Burial - All Saints Epping copy Parish Record Entry - 9 March 1745
I am still somewhat confused with the dates even when allowing for a couple of months variation in calendars does not cover 11 month variation from death to will signing if dates were correct?
I look forward to any further suggestions.

Thanks
SydR