Author Topic: John Turner of Longton  (Read 454 times)

Online BumbleB

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Re: John Turner of Longton
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 16 May 18 08:44 BST (UK) »
Could this be John's marriage - St Peter ad Vincula, SoT - 13 December 1825

John Turner (x) bachelor, Potter and Elizabeth Walton (x), spinster.
Transcriptions and NBI are merely finding aids.  They are NOT a substitute for original record entries.
Remember - "They'll be found when they want to be found" !!!
Archbell - anywhere, any date
Kendall - WRY
Milner - WRY
Appleyard - WRY

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Online BumbleB

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Re: John Turner of Longton
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 16 May 18 08:48 BST (UK) »
I can't see any C of E baptisms for children of John and Elizabeth 1825 - 1840 in Longton or SoT.

Transcriptions and NBI are merely finding aids.  They are NOT a substitute for original record entries.
Remember - "They'll be found when they want to be found" !!!
Archbell - anywhere, any date
Kendall - WRY
Milner - WRY
Appleyard - WRY

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Offline hanes teulu

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Re: John Turner of Longton
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 16 May 18 08:58 BST (UK) »

There's a job advert in the Staffordshire Advertiser, 10 Dec 1842, application to be made to "John Turner, Chemist, &c, Lane End, Potteries".

This looks like him in the '41 Census - age range outside the 1803 baptism
HO107  Piece 991  Book 4 Folio 29 Page 4

"John Turner, potter" proving very elusive '41 or after!
S. Wales, Somerset, Devon - Oxenham

Aberavon - Hopkin/s, Jenkins, Thomas
St. Brides/Wick - Jenkins
Llanblethian -  Price
Abergwynfi -  Han(d)ford
Pontardawe -  Lewis.

Offline Old-Bonez

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Re: John Turner of Longton
« Reply #12 on: Wednesday 16 May 18 09:08 BST (UK) »
hanes teulu
Now that is so very interesting because in the book "The Turners of Lane End" by Bevis Hillier is says that one of John Turners Grandsons (d. 1787) was a Chemist. It fails to identify which grandson. I have searched for this information and so did the author of a book when researching this Johns sister Mary Ann Turner (Staffordshire Women).

I'll have to look that up.
Staffordshire: Turner, Emery, Hyde & Markland
Lancashire: Stirrup, Cloweth
London: Fountain,
Devon: Devonshire, Webb
Stirling: Wingate, 
Australia: Fountain, Turner, Solah, Paskins, Brookfield, Cowle, Trondsen

Offline hanes teulu

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Re: John Turner of Longton
« Reply #13 on: Wednesday 16 May 18 17:58 BST (UK) »
John Turner (Chemist in 1841) is readily found in the 1851 census - still with Miriam Turner as part of the household.

This, in turn, leads to a Staffordshire baptism that fit's the 1851 YoB and mother.

Best of luck with the search
S. Wales, Somerset, Devon - Oxenham

Aberavon - Hopkin/s, Jenkins, Thomas
St. Brides/Wick - Jenkins
Llanblethian -  Price
Abergwynfi -  Han(d)ford
Pontardawe -  Lewis.

Offline Old-Bonez

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Re: John Turner of Longton
« Reply #14 on: Wednesday 16 May 18 22:16 BST (UK) »
hanes teulu.
Your earlier comment of "but they are not listed in the 1841 summary" is easy to understand because the Turner Pottery was bankrupt in 1806. William Turner on his own managed a comeback and leased his old pottery 1824-1829. In all I have proof of 3 bankruptcies for William Turner.

General comment:
The original pottery in the years of his father 1759-1789 was second only to his friend and rival Josiah Wedgwood. Most of the other mainstream potters that we have grown to know so well mainly thrived in the 1800's.


This article mentions "John and William Turner" - but they are not listed in the 1841 summary

http://www.thepotteries.org/location/districts/lane_end3.htm
Staffordshire: Turner, Emery, Hyde & Markland
Lancashire: Stirrup, Cloweth
London: Fountain,
Devon: Devonshire, Webb
Stirling: Wingate, 
Australia: Fountain, Turner, Solah, Paskins, Brookfield, Cowle, Trondsen

Offline Old-Bonez

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Re: John Turner of Longton
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 16 May 18 23:44 BST (UK) »
Thank you Hanes Teulu & BumbleB for putting in the time to search for information on this difficult to find John Turner. It is always difficult sorting out multiple pieces of information so here is what we have.

Solid information:
1) John Turner bap. 29 Aug 1803 at St. John's, Lane End (Longton)
2) Confirmed that it was John who applied for Administration of his fathers will. So John was alive in 1835 and his occupation was potter. (Aged 39)

Pieces found:
1) disregard the burial of the 5yo John Turner-1809 Longton (dosen't fit with any other known family either).
2) Should we disregard all information on this John being a Chemist???
Was the research for the book "Turners of Lane End" wrong when it said that one of the grandsons was a chemist. Afterall this could include a son of a daughter of the original potter of which there were two that married and had children but they would not have been Turners.
No ... I won't disregard it yet ... The aging Bevis Hillier has sent me all his research notes for the book. There are about a thousand pieces of paper containing jottings. Now that I have a fourth thing to look for from his book I'll go over them again to see if I can find where he obtained that chemist information.
3) Disregard the 1841 census where he was described as a Carter ...
4) Disregard the 29th Oct 1841 burial as we know that in 1835 our John was 39.

Summery:
a) A previous search for a Chemist named Turner in Lane End/Longton turned up fruitless but here we now have proof of a John Turner Chemist of Lane End.

b) In 1835 (we know this is our John Turner) is recorded as being a potter.

So we have two John Turners and only one is found in the 1841 census. Why .. Did one move or die???
The chemist is still found in 1851

It is looking as if John Turner the potter did marry Elizabeth Walton 1825 St Peter ad Vincula at Stoke. Interesting since the Church apparently wasn't built till 1826 however there must have been something there. Perhaps an earlier church and the new one well under construction.

What does the classification of "Potter" actually mean? Most people working in a pottery have their own employment names. The name potter infers that they are a master potter that have gone through an apprentership. This is likely to have happened during his fathers re-emergence back into trading 1824-1829 as both sons would have been old enough. So after 1829 final bankruptcy the boys would have been looking for work anywhere they could find it so they may not have stayed in Longton.

One last request:
It is over six years since I looked at your census details so I can't remember just how big each area covered.
Could the Census search be broadened to try to find him working as a potter or for a potter somewhere else?
Whilst looking please include his brother William.

Regards, Rob
Staffordshire: Turner, Emery, Hyde & Markland
Lancashire: Stirrup, Cloweth
London: Fountain,
Devon: Devonshire, Webb
Stirling: Wingate, 
Australia: Fountain, Turner, Solah, Paskins, Brookfield, Cowle, Trondsen

Offline hanes teulu

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Re: John Turner of Longton
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 17 May 18 07:25 BST (UK) »
Yes - plenty of references to the bankruptcy 1804-1806. One newspaper item, advertising the sale of John Turner's Lightwood Lodge properties in September 1806 has William as 44 yrs of age and John 41.

 
S. Wales, Somerset, Devon - Oxenham

Aberavon - Hopkin/s, Jenkins, Thomas
St. Brides/Wick - Jenkins
Llanblethian -  Price
Abergwynfi -  Han(d)ford
Pontardawe -  Lewis.