Author Topic: Mary Ann Varrell born c1808  (Read 2779 times)

Online Mabel Bagshawe

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Re: Mary Ann Varrell born c1808
« Reply #9 on: Friday 25 May 18 22:19 BST (UK) »
Do you think it’s possible the Jane Clara Michelin baptisms in 1844 between Mary Ann Varrell and Charles and 1851 between Martha and Charles are the same daughter?

There appears to be only one death record in 1851 - Jane Clara Mitchelin (surname variation). Why would they baptize twice?

I think it's the same child - the birthdate on both baptisms is 6 Sept, but different years. The child who dies in Q2 1851 was 8 years old. The death and second baptism are in the same quarter, perhaps she was gravely ill, Charles couldn;t remember if she'd been baptised so he had a second baptism just in case

Aha - 1851 she's in the Middlesex Hospital (as Jane Clare Mitchellen)

Offline CelticMom

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Re: Mary Ann Varrell born c1808
« Reply #10 on: Friday 25 May 18 23:26 BST (UK) »
Do you think it’s possible the Jane Clara Michelin baptisms in 1844 between Mary Ann Varrell and Charles and 1851 between Martha and Charles are the same daughter?

There appears to be only one death record in 1851 - Jane Clara Mitchelin (surname variation). Why would they baptize twice?

I think it's the same child - the birthdate on both baptisms is 6 Sept, but different years. The child who dies in Q2 1851 was 8 years old. The death and second baptism are in the same quarter, perhaps she was gravely ill, Charles couldn;t remember if she'd been baptised so he had a second baptism just in case

Aha - 1851 she's in the Middlesex Hospital (as Jane Clare Mitchellen)

Thanks, Mabel, yes that's correct, I forgot she was in the hospital in 1851, I knew she was hospitalized at some point but couldn't remember when.  I really should look at my file before asking something which I probably already have the answer too lol. It's been a long time since I went back to this family and worked on it because of being stuck with Mary Ann Varrell. So definitely need to refresh my memory on what I have as I have Lot's to look into now.

Looking back at the 1851 census, Martha is a visitor with Charles and it says she is married (M) not widowed, but she doesn't seem to ever appear with a husband. I can't yet find a marriage of Martha Varrell to a ? Nelson, but it's most likely non-conformist.

I presume records for Kent are online? (I'm now living in Canada), so I may need to look there for a marriage.
Anderson & Marr - Midlothian & East Lothian
Bennett - Devonport
Catleugh & Shiells - East Lothian
Galvin, McLaren, Cullen & Dowling - Waterford, Ireland
Littlejohns - Plymouth & London
Mansfield - Benfleet & St Pancras
Michelin - London
Newlands - Midlothian & Fife
Paterson - Canongate, Midlothian
Rutherford and Johnston - Roxburghshire
Taylor - East Lothian & Berwickshire
Thomson - Leith & Muthill
Thorney, Hawkin, Lewis - Herefordshire
Small & Paulin - Northumberland
Varrall - Kent

Offline ciderdrinker

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Re: Mary Ann Varrell born c1808
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 26 May 18 10:53 BST (UK) »
Hello
Sorry not to get back to you.I didn't see a notification of your post for some reason.Strange but there you go.
Yes I am suggesting that Mary Ann and Martha Nelson were sisters.
Like you I couldn't see a marriage between Charles Michellin and Martha Nelson but on that census she's with the Michelin family in 1851 she is noted as married so Martha must have married a Mr Nelson sometime somewhere.
And has as already been said a marriage between Martha Nelson and Charles Michellin would therefore not have been valid.

I looked at the GRO index to see if I could find a birth registration for  Jane Clara but could only see one .She had  a mother maiden name Varrell but it was in 1842.

It seems a bit of a coincidence if Martha Nelson was with Mary Ann's family down in Kent in 1841 and then moved to London and was with the family again on the 1851 and she wasn't related.

It looks like Martha Varrall married Edward Nelson at Islington St Mary 7th Jan 1822 both single  and of this parish.Both signed.Wit William Varrall and William Brice who also signed.

They had a son Frederick William Nelson christened at St James Piccadilly 20.2.1830.They were form Bow and Edward was a bootmaker.
Daughter    Martha Adelaide Nelson  29 Nov  1831 / bapt 22.4.1832  Murdell St? cordwainer ,Edward John Nelson 5 Nov 1833/Bapt 5 Nov 1834
Also Edward William Nelson C of London lying in Hospital 30.10.1822 Nicholas lane ,Boot maker
Who may have been buried 6.7.1825 age 2 at St James Piccadilly of Carnaby St.

Looks like the family were also on the 1841 census so Martha was on it  twice.
ST James Westminster
Edward Nelson 38 boot maker y
Martha 37 n
Frederick 11 y
Martha 9 y
Edward 7 y

There's a tree on Ancestry for Frederick Nelson a Brazillian merchant apparently.
It looks like Edward Nelson didn't die until June 1869 so again no way could Martha marry Charles.

Edward seems to have his own family down in Kent on the 1861 census at West Wickham
Edward Nelson  57 bootmaker Westminster St James
Sarah  47 Paddington
Charles 16 bootmaker Whitechapel
Alexander 14 Brompton ( all mother's maiden name Clegg)
Henry 11 C of London
Walter 3 C of London
Clara 8 C of London

The previous census in 1851 has them in London,Charles now born in Boulogne.
Two more children Richard 13 and Edward 16 maybe Martha's kids.

Hope that helps and sorry not to have gotten back to you.

Ciderdrinker


Offline CelticMom

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Re: Mary Ann Varrell born c1808
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 26 May 18 13:52 BST (UK) »
Hello
Sorry not to get back to you.I didn't see a notification of your post for some reason.Strange but there you go.
Yes I am suggesting that Mary Ann and Martha Nelson were sisters.
Like you I couldn't see a marriage between Charles Michellin and Martha Nelson but on that census she's with the Michelin family in 1851 she is noted as married so Martha must have married a Mr Nelson sometime somewhere.
And has as already been said a marriage between Martha Nelson and Charles Michellin would therefore not have been valid.

I looked at the GRO index to see if I could find a birth registration for  Jane Clara but could only see one .She had  a mother maiden name Varrell but it was in 1842.

It seems a bit of a coincidence if Martha Nelson was with Mary Ann's family down in Kent in 1841 and then moved to London and was with the family again on the 1851 and she wasn't related.

It looks like Martha Varrall married Edward Nelson at Islington St Mary 7th Jan 1822 both single  and of this parish.Both signed.Wit William Varrall and William Brice who also signed.

They had a son Frederick William Nelson christened at St James Piccadilly 20.2.1830.They were form Bow and Edward was a bootmaker.
Daughter    Martha Adelaide Nelson  29 Nov  1831 / bapt 22.4.1832  Murdell St? cordwainer ,Edward John Nelson 5 Nov 1833/Bapt 5 Nov 1834
Also Edward William Nelson C of London lying in Hospital 30.10.1822 Nicholas lane ,Boot maker
Who may have been buried 6.7.1825 age 2 at St James Piccadilly of Carnaby St.

Looks like the family were also on the 1841 census so Martha was on it  twice.
ST James Westminster
Edward Nelson 38 boot maker y
Martha 37 n
Frederick 11 y
Martha 9 y
Edward 7 y

There's a tree on Ancestry for Frederick Nelson a Brazillian merchant apparently.
It looks like Edward Nelson didn't die until June 1869 so again no way could Martha marry Charles.

Edward seems to have his own family down in Kent on the 1861 census at West Wickham
Edward Nelson  57 bootmaker Westminster St James
Sarah  47 Paddington
Charles 16 bootmaker Whitechapel
Alexander 14 Brompton ( all mother's maiden name Clegg)
Henry 11 C of London
Walter 3 C of London
Clara 8 C of London

The previous census in 1851 has them in London,Charles now born in Boulogne.
Two more children Richard 13 and Edward 16 maybe Martha's kids.

Hope that helps and sorry not to have gotten back to you.

Ciderdrinker

Wow thank you, that gives me heaps to work on now. I really appreciate your help.

It definitely looks like Martha’s marriage to Edwards didn’t go so well.

Can I ask where you found the marriage for Martha?
Anderson & Marr - Midlothian & East Lothian
Bennett - Devonport
Catleugh & Shiells - East Lothian
Galvin, McLaren, Cullen & Dowling - Waterford, Ireland
Littlejohns - Plymouth & London
Mansfield - Benfleet & St Pancras
Michelin - London
Newlands - Midlothian & Fife
Paterson - Canongate, Midlothian
Rutherford and Johnston - Roxburghshire
Taylor - East Lothian & Berwickshire
Thomson - Leith & Muthill
Thorney, Hawkin, Lewis - Herefordshire
Small & Paulin - Northumberland
Varrall - Kent


Online Mabel Bagshawe

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Re: Mary Ann Varrell born c1808
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 26 May 18 19:51 BST (UK) »
Charles & Martha have granddaughter Martha Nelson b c1852 with them in 1861. She appears not to have a mmn listed on GRO for her birth, so I guess she could be the daughter of Martha (1831)

Offline CelticMom

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Re: Mary Ann Varrell born c1808
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 26 May 18 22:06 BST (UK) »
Charles & Martha have granddaughter Martha Nelson b c1852 with them in 1861. She appears not to have a mmn listed on GRO for her birth, so I guess she could be the daughter of Martha (1831)

so daughter of one of Martha's children, will look into it.
Anderson & Marr - Midlothian & East Lothian
Bennett - Devonport
Catleugh & Shiells - East Lothian
Galvin, McLaren, Cullen & Dowling - Waterford, Ireland
Littlejohns - Plymouth & London
Mansfield - Benfleet & St Pancras
Michelin - London
Newlands - Midlothian & Fife
Paterson - Canongate, Midlothian
Rutherford and Johnston - Roxburghshire
Taylor - East Lothian & Berwickshire
Thomson - Leith & Muthill
Thorney, Hawkin, Lewis - Herefordshire
Small & Paulin - Northumberland
Varrall - Kent

Online Mabel Bagshawe

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Re: Mary Ann Varrell born c1808
« Reply #15 on: Saturday 26 May 18 22:14 BST (UK) »
Confusingly we have 3 Marthas

Martha 1 - nee Varrell, married Nelson, lived with Michelin (died as Martha Nelson Michelin)

Martha 2: Martha Adelaide - b 1831, daughter of Martha and Edward Nelson (see 1841)

Martha 3 - b 1852, granddaughter of Martha 1. Appears to be illegitimate, obvious candidate for mother is Martha 2

Offline CelticMom

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Re: Mary Ann Varrell born c1808
« Reply #16 on: Saturday 26 May 18 22:16 BST (UK) »
Confusingly we have 3 Marthas

Martha 1 - nee Varrell, married Nelson, lived with Michelin (died as Martha Nelson Michelin)

Martha 2: Martha Adelaide - b 1831, daughter of Martha and Edward Nelson (see 1841)

Martha 3 - b 1852, granddaughter of Martha 1. Appears to be illegitimate, obvious candidate for mother is Martha 2

how have you worked out she is possibly illegitimate?

I have found a baptism in 1852 for Martha Pullen Nelson to George Nelson and Martha
Anderson & Marr - Midlothian & East Lothian
Bennett - Devonport
Catleugh & Shiells - East Lothian
Galvin, McLaren, Cullen & Dowling - Waterford, Ireland
Littlejohns - Plymouth & London
Mansfield - Benfleet & St Pancras
Michelin - London
Newlands - Midlothian & Fife
Paterson - Canongate, Midlothian
Rutherford and Johnston - Roxburghshire
Taylor - East Lothian & Berwickshire
Thomson - Leith & Muthill
Thorney, Hawkin, Lewis - Herefordshire
Small & Paulin - Northumberland
Varrall - Kent

Online Mabel Bagshawe

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Re: Mary Ann Varrell born c1808
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 26 May 18 22:18 BST (UK) »
As I noted above, she appears not to have a mmn listed on the GRO register for her birth. This usually indicates llegitimacy