Missing death index and certificate [Brickwall]

[Love&Leaves]

Thanks Wolfie... Hmmmm Palombi!!??  This just keeps getting more confusing.  I think it will be worth getting the cert as this Antonio must be connected in someway.. could be one of the other siblings child or even dare I say it, Giovanni!  Now that would be a shock!

RTL - there does seem to be so many errors/discrepancies surrounding this lot.. Pasquair aged 65... I don't know! It would be great to check on the baptism for Antonio if you get a chance, I will go though the birth records looking for any others that aren't accounted for as well.  Not sure how I've missed him before.  Incidentally there doesn't appear to be a death record for him either.

I think all these Battista's must be connected in someway - who knows how though as nothing seems to be corroborating anything! 

 

[River Tyne Lass]

I will look for a baptism for Antonio next time I can get to the archives.

A Filomena DiCarlo/Palombi got married in Newcastle upon Tyne in March quarter 1907 possibly to a Vincenzo Menzoni.

If they do turn out to be parents of Antonio it will raise questions as to why he was given the surname Battista.

Could this Vincenzo really be Giovanni?  Something to look into further I think.  

[River Tyne Lass]

According to freebmd there appears to be two Antonio Battistas who were registered in the September quarter in Tynemouth.

I have been able to find the baptism for one whose Mother's maiden name was De Carlo but not the one whose mmn was Palombie.

St Cuthbert RC, North Shields
Antonio Baptista (sic)
Born 7 Aug
Bapt 15 Aug 1909
Parents: Pascolii et Mariae Baptista (sic) olim De Carlo
Ceremony by L. Jackson
Godparents: Antonio De Carlo & (R --?) di Carlo

Written in  the left hand margin is in brackets (Domi ob perio)
Ex (Ceremonies?)
Completica
Aug 18/09

I have no clue what that means.

As an aside I think the priest may have been Father Leo Jackson who went on to be the priest at St John Annitsford. He baptised my Dad and most of his siblings and did the burial service for my Grandfather and an aunt and uncle.

I have tried a few RC Newcastle Churches for a marriage of Filomena Palombi and Vincenzo Menzoni but didn't find this.  Perhaps they may have married at a registry? Also tried looking for a baptism for their possible son Antonio (Menzoni or Battista?) but did not find one in the time I had.

[JenB]

Written in  the left hand margin is in brackets (Domi ob perio)
Ex (Ceremonies?)
Completing
Aug 18/09

I'd hazard a guess that the wording was Domi ob peric[ulum] [mortis] which means at home because of danger of death.

So I'd suggest the child was baptised at home (i.e. in emergency) on 15th August, then was fully baptised in church on 18th August.

(Your thread here refers to a similar thing  https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=766243.msg6181975#msg6181975

[River Tyne Lass]

Thanks Jen, I did wonder if it might mean similar to my post you have attached but wording was not exactly the same so I was not sure.

I am the only non-Catholic 'Child' in a Catholic family of siblings .. long story how that happened .. that is why I never have a clue about all this Catholic stuff.

What you write makes sense so I think you are most likely correct in that Antonio must have had an emergency baptism.

[River Tyne Lass]

Shame I could not find a marriage for Filomena and Vincenzo .. at this point I am wondering if he may have been Giovanni marrying bigamously?

I wonder if he may have left Anastasia and family for this other woman.  Maybe Anastasia thought he was only living with this woman? Antonio's mmn Palombi.  If his parents were Filomena and Vincenzo his surname should be Menzoni and not Battista.  Then again if Vincenzo is really Giovanni, it would be understandable if he wanted his child by this woman to go by his real surname.  Then again, perhaps I am imagining skulduggery where none really exists.

[Love&Leaves]

Lol RTL!  I am guessing the birth certificate will reveal all  . Thanks for checking the baptism out.

I agree with your translation Jen.. literal google translation is 'orders for home'.

I have the De Carlo family on my tree (given that I haven't completely ruled them out as being connected to my Pasqualino) and strangely, Filomena Palombo is Marieta De Carlo's MOTHER.  Filomena is married to Bernardo De Carlo.  They did have a son called Antonio but he was born in 1876 in Italy.  He is brother to Marieta and married to Restituta.  I think it is Antonio and Restituta who are the god parents on this Antonio's baptism.

The Filomena Palombo name and connection comes from another Ancestry member, there are no documents to back this up as yet.  However this member has a lot of information concerning Antonio De Carlo (Marieta's brother) including photographs so I think he is directly connected.  I may try to contact him to see if he can shed any light.

Vincenzo Menzoni must have been Filomena's second husband!!

I'll let you know when I have more.

[Love&Leaves]

I have received the birth certificate for Antonio Battista.. parents Maria and Pasquale Battista... Maria Battista's maiden name is Palombi.  Address is 40 Elsdon Street so these are definitely the same parents as Loretto and I guess Bernardo. 

I think there is definitely something being covered up somewhere.. why would Maria use her mothers maiden name on that one birth certificate where she appears as Di-Carlo everywhere else?

Still nothing definite to connect this Pasquale to my Pasqualino though but also nothing to rule out him leading a double life with two families... I went through my Pasqualino's navy service record and he was stationed in this country for the vast majority of his record, usually down in Chatham in Kent.  I looked at every point he would have needed to be around (such as when he gets married and when babies were created  ) and he is definitely in the UK.  There is no overlap between the two families activities so it appears it would have been entirely possible  . My only query is that would he have had enough time on leave or the means to get from Kent back up to North Shields on a (sort of) regular basis???

One other possibility is Maria had Antonio and Bernardo to another man but gave them the Battista surname as she was never divorced from Pasquale and so they were not illegitimate.  She may have used a mixture of names on the 1911 census for Coronation Road that Wolfie found to hide this and/or she married another man called Loreta?  I can't find anything on this 'Loreta' or 'Branda' or 'Burnard' family other than a death for Maria Loreta in 1917, however this was registered in Sunderland and the birth date is off by 30 years! (1890 vs 1860).

I am thinking to focus on the occupation and addresses... if I can just link my Pasqualino to one of the other Pasquale's addresses.... or find something relating to Pasquale noting him as a Sailor. I can't find any of them on the electoral roll as they weren't eligible.  No addresses on Pasqualino's service record.  I have asked Battista about the birth certificates for his Great Grandfather and Great Aunt (born 1913 and 1914) to Pasqualino's 'second' wife.  There are a few other certificates I could purchase but this is getting expensive... anyone have any ideas about other sources of addresses?

[Love&Leaves]

Just received Anthony Battista and Catherine Little/Liddle's marriage certificate in the post.

Father is Giovanni Battista an Ice Cream Vendor.  No mention of being deceased.  This was August 1909.

On Pasqualino's marriage banns in 1910 Giovanni is noted as being deceased.

Witness is R. Battista who I believe is Remigio Battista, the other brother Antonio's son and Anthony's cousin.  They were the same age.  Another example of the Battista's being a close family I think.