Whitland Carm' & Neath Glam' Hannah Williams & Thomas Francis

[Rawlinm]

My great great grandparents were Hannah Williams and Thomas Francis. I’m looking for records of Hannah’s birth, Thomas’ birth and death, and their marriage.

(There is an entry in the 1951 Census for Hannah Williams as being a 15 year old servant in Llandilotalybont. This states that she was born in Llannon, Carmarthenshire, Wales. I’m not sure if this is the correct person)

Hannah appears in the 1861 Census as Thana Francis living with Thomas Francis in Aberdare. This shows her birth location as being Whitland, Carmarthenshire, Wales and her dob being approx. 1835. They have a one year old daughter Ann born in Aberdare. Thomas is showing as being born in Penefail, Glamorganshire (which doesn’t seem to exist? Perhaps Pen-y-fai?) in 1834.

In the 1871 Census Hannah and Thomas are living in Ystradyfodwg. Hannah is showing as being born in Coneryl, Carmarthenshire, Wales, dob 1835. Thomas is born in Neath, Glamorganshire. They have daughter Mary Ann (12) and son John (6).

In the 1881 Census Hannah is a Widow, living at 71 Duffryn Terrace, Ystradyfodwg with Lodger Henry Male who she later married. I have found entries for Hannah in the 1901 Census that shows her birth location as Blaen Y Coed, Carmarthenshire, and the 1911 Census. Hannah Male died on 17 July 1913.

Hannah’s father was Benjamin Williams (B. about 1816) who died after 1883.

Hannah had a brother also called Benjamin Williams who ran the Blue Boar public house, Water Street, Carmarthen and appears there in the 1911 census (B. about 1850, Conwil Parish, Carmarthenshire, Wales).

Could someone help me with a lookup in the Parish records of Hannah Williams and Thomas Francis for records of Hannah’s birth, Thomas’ birth and death, and their marriage?

Thanks very much
Mark Rawlings

[osprey]

Welcome to Rootschat!

Given that you don't have the marriage cert for Thomas Francis & Hannah, where does her maiden name come from?
There isn't a likely marriage on FreeBmd for a Thomas Francis & Hannah Williams, but there is one for a Thomas Francis & Hannah Bowen - sept qtr 1856 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 443 both names on that page. I haven't found a parish entry for that marriage possibly because there isn't one to find as I suspect at least one of the couple was non-conformist.
Possible birth reg for daughter Ann march qtr 1859 Merthyr Tydfil vol 11a pg 383 mmn Bowen
No likely reg for John with either maiden name.

If Hannah was a Bowen, there's this family in 1851

 Aberdare Village HO107/2460 folio 363 pg 8
Theophilus Bowen head mar 27 coal miner b. Lanbide? Carms
Mary wife 36 b. Aberdare
Benjamin son 4 b. Aberdare
Thomas son 2 b. Aberdare
John son ?months b. Aberdare
Hannah siter 16 house servant b. NK Carms

and in 1841
Aberdare Village HO107/1420/1 folio 4 pg 2
Martha Bowen 50 widow
Theophilus 15 carpenter
Mary 20
Levi 14 haulier
Anna 6

FreeReg has baptisms in Llanddowror Tabernacle for children of Benjamin Bowen & Martha Lewis
Theophilus bp 17 Sept 1823
Levi bp 27 Aug 1826
Eliza 3 Jan 1830
Louisa 19 Nov 1832
Benjamin Bowen of Llanboidy married Martha Lewis in Llangan 6 Oct 1816

Llanddowror isn't far from Whitland

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/CMN/Llanddowror

Conwil which Hannah claims as her place of birth in 1861 & 1871 isn't close to Whitland.


 

[Rawlinm]

Thanks Osprey,

I don't have the marriage cert for Hannah and Thomas but I do have the marriage cert for Hannah and her second husband Henry Male (M. Oct 23rd 1883), which shows her fathers name as Benjamin Williams (Deceased). I also have Hannah's Will in which she left property to her brother, Benjamin Williams. So I figure if both father and brother were Williams that might be her maiden name. It may not be the case of course, maybe she was adopted or her mother remarried a Williams?

The non-conformist idea has thrown me a little. Is there any way of accessing these records?

Thanks again.
Mark

[osprey]

well, my theory doesn't match your facts. 

I've been trying to trace Benjamin the publican before 1901 without much success so far. I have found an obituary for him from 1916, aged 69 which makes him born before 1850. All the relatives mentioned seem to be on his wife's side.

http://newspapers.library.wales/view/3689962/3689966/39/

There's a mention of attending Lammas Street, probably this church, so non-conformist

http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/6232/details/heol-awst-welsh-independent-chapel-on-lammas-street-carmarthen
There are some non-conformist records available although not always on line.

Hannah's place of birth
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynwyl_Elfed

Possible in 1841
Blaenrhyd, Conwil HO107/1383/7 folio 50 pg  8
Benjamin Williams 40 ag lab
Esther 35
Judith 11
Josiah 9
Annah 6
Mary 3
all born in county

1851 Blaenywain, Treleach HO107/2474 folio 259 pg 6
Esther Williams head wdiwo 51 gather eggs b. Treleach
Mary dau 13 employed at home b. Conwil
Esther dau 8 employed at home b. Conwil
Benjamin son 5 employed at home b. Conwil

There's a 16 year old Hannah Williams b. Conwil Elvet working as a dairymaid at Tannerdy farm, St Peter's, Carmarthen HO107/2473 folio 259 pg 6.

Birth reg for Esther Williams has mother's maiden name of Davies and there's one for Benjamin sept qtr 1846 Carmarthen vol 26 pg 571 mmn Davies.

Possible marriage for Benjamin Williams & Esther Williams 10 April 1832 in Abernant, he was a widower and she was a widow.

[osprey]

baptism for Josiah 20 April 1833 in Rock Dissenting Congregational or Dissenting in Trelech a'r Bettws

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1RG-VP1

This might be Judith's baptism to Benjamin & his first wife Sarah

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X1RL-5XS

other children to same couple in same church
Rachel bp 1 Oct 1821
Eliza bp 23 April 1827


Haven't spotted a likely marriage for Thomas & Hannah as yet. I wonder if she was married before and widowed young.

 

[osprey]

just having another look for Thomas and I think I may have a candidate.

death reg Thomas Francis 44 sept qtr 1879 Pontypridd vol 11a pg 185

1851 census has a Thomas Francis lodging in Aberdare aged 17, a miner, b. Newcastle, Glam HO107/2460 folio 425 pg 37

1841 Penyvay, Upper hamlet, Newcastle, Glam HO107/1422/23 folio 5 pg 5
David Francis 40 collier
Ann 35
William 14
Rachel 10
Thomas 7
Janet 5
David 3
Margaret Thomas 4
William Phillip 90
all born in county

David Francis married Ann Phillip 30 April 1826 in Newcastle, Glam.
No sign of the family in 1851 but there is a marriage4 Oct 1847 in Newcastle for Anne Francis, widow to Thomas Hugh, widower, her father William Phillip, deceased.


Where the family are in 1841 looks to be a match to what Thomas gives as his place of birth on 1861 census

http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/wal/GLA/Newcastle/Penyfai   

What's needed is the marriage cert for Thomas & Hannah to confirm names & occupations of fathers.

[Rawlinm]

Thanks Osprey,

this is really good and seems to make sense. The newspaper article was something I hadn't seen before as well.
I have Benjamin Williams running another pub in 1901 at;
https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBC/1901/0033321624
But as you say nothing before.

also I've ordered the death cert for Thomas to see if that adds anything.

How do I get the marriage cert? If its a non-conformist record not available on line does that mean working with the church?

Mark

[osprey]

you can get any marriage cert from the GRO

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/default.asp

At that period, any marriage taking place in a non-conformist church would have been attended by a registrar as the church would not have had its own marriage register. This was the case until the 1890s.

Death certs don't always give useful genealogical info. You should get a father's name on a cert for a child and sometimes an unmarried woman. Someone the name of the person registering the death is of use. The cert for a married man may not even mention his wife's name.

[Rawlinm]

I have the death cert now, which shows Thomas as a Mason. That tallies with the 1871 census where he's living with Hannah and children Mary Ann Francis and John Francis at 23 Maxwell Street. Maybe he was a Miner before becoming a Mason but it seems unlikely?