When you can't quite prove two people are one and the same...

[Malcolm33]

     You could always try for a settlement certificate though I'm not sure whether these were still in use in the late 19th century.    I had much the same case with my Grants of Derbyshire.   We were so sure that Michael Grant of Chinley on the far west of Derbyshire was the same Michael Grant as later on at Walton on the far east of Derbyshire but couldn't find any evidence until years later when a settlement certificate was found and proved his identity as being one and the same.   There were other little facts in the certificate which also helped.

[Mike Morrell (NL)]

It's been years since I did any new research but I think applying the "Genealogical Proof Standard" in an unbiased way is the best we can do. I think a key point is doing as much research to find conflicting evidence as supporting evidence for a possible ancestor.

I have a few 'weak links' in my tree but I've marked these and noted any evidence that's lacking or uncertainties. I can't 'prove' these links but they're highly likelely based on the balance of evidence.

[Guy Etchells]

I see many requests over the years for help in trying to (dis)prove that two people are one and the same.  Many of these requests go 100% unanswered.  I've got two of these, but rather than giving specific and extensive details, I thought I'd ask for any general ideas or guidelines. 

So, if you've got two sections of timeline that don't coincide at all, relating to someone with the same name, how can you prove or disprove their independence or co-existence?  For example I've got a probable ancestor who is in one place in 1860-1880, then elsewhere from 1885 to 1920, but I can't be sure it is the same man, even though his two forenames and surname are the same.

I think many here will be grateful for suggestions.

Martin

You are fortunate with it being a relatively late period you are trying to prove.
Perhaps the easiest resource would be the Electoral Registers these start in 1832 (and Burgess Rolls) for each year.
You do not mention their age(s) but you could pick up one or the other and work forwards (or backwards) until they are appearing in the wrong place when you know the should be in the other place.
Cheers
Guy

[Mart 'n' Al]

Thank you all for your interest in this. I will try and add full details later, but it might be a day or two.

Martin

[Mart 'n' Al]

Thank you all for the various offers of looking at my situation a bit more deeply than I ever hoped for.

My great grandfather George Leggett was born in Lowestoft, specifically a village just to the north, called Corton in 1837, the son of Daniel and Mary Leggett. Daniel was an agricultural labourer and their son George, became a fisherman.

He appears on the 1851 census, as a boy, and then very little is known about him until the early 1890s. In the early 1890s he met a lady, (born Jane Adamson, she had briefly married a 71 year old man Henry Thompson, with whom she had a child, Harry. The 71 year old man died in 1890. She then met my great grandfather, and had six children, plus Harry.) The various birth certificates list his occupation as things such as fishermen, fish dealer, innkeeper, dockyard labourer, ship's plater.  There is no doubt that he did make all these career changes!  He was either multi-talented or very good at talking himself into a job.

Once slight mystery is that although we have his death certificate for 1921, he is listed as deceased on the marriage certificate of one of his daughters in 1915.

The mystery years are from 1851 to about 1891. It seems very likely that he married a lady, Mary Boynton in Hull in 1861.  They soon moved to Scarborough where they had couple of children.  He does not appear on the 1871 nor 1881 census. For the rest of her life Mary Boynton, now Mary Leggett lists herself as married, but her husband George Leggett never appears on the census in Scarborough where they lived after their marriage.  In 1911 she is still alive, living in Scarborough with her daughter.

George is missing from censuses in 1871 and 1881.  Possibly he was at sea, being a fisherman?

In 1891 (a) George Leggett, born 1837, Lowestoft, is living in Hartlepool as a visitor to Thomas Ggarnham and family who have just had two small children born in... Scarborough.

In 1901 the family census is marked 'husband away'.

1911 he is listed as border, widower, living with a friend in Hartlepool.  The friend's wife and daughter both came from ...Scarborough.

So we have George Leggett disappearing from Scarborough, and "another" George Leggett probably the same one but I can't be sure, born 1837 in Lowestoft appearing in  Hartlepool. For anyone not familiar with the geography, you can travel up the coast from Lowestoft to Hull, Scarborough and Hartlepool as they are just 230-250 miles apart by fishing boat. Whether or not the Hull/Scarborough George Leggett is the same as the Hartlepool George Leggett is causing a family-wide rift. I will probably exceed the character limit if I insert the full details so I will put them in a separate posting immediately after this one.

So was my GGF a phllandering rogue, either deserting wife Mary for Jane (there is no marriage record), or did he have a 'wife' in every port?  Or are they two totally different decent men?  We even wonder if the statement on the 1915 certificate for his daughter's marriage that he was deceased was as a result of his 'secrets' coming out and being ostracised?

Thank you for your time and efforts.  The subsequent post will list the majority of what we know.

PS Update, 16:20 same day.  I should also add that on his 1862 marriage certificate, and on the 1896 bc of his son, the registrar has put 'George Leggett's mark' and 'the mark of George Leggett' inferring that he was illiterate.  Both documents were completed only by the registrar, i.e. nobody actually signed either document.

Martin

[Mart 'n' Al]

Continued from my immediately previous post.

                    Summary of George Daniel Leggett

Name:         George Daniel Leggett
             
Gender:       Male
             
Father:       Daniel Leggett
             
Mother:       Mary Ann Farman
             

Life Events

Birth         18 July 1837 in Corton, Suffolk, England. [1a]
             
Death         25 February 1921 in School House, Lister Street, West
              Hartlepool, Hartlepool, County Durham, England.
             

Religious

Christening   13 August 1837 in Corton, Suffolk, England. [1a]
             

Vocational

Occupation    Fish Dealer, Lavinia Adamson Leggett's bc, 30 April 1892
              in 91, Mile End Road, Westoe, South Shields, County
              Durham, England.
             
Occupation    Fishmonger, Violet Mary Leggett's BC, 10 January 1894.
             
Occupation    Inn Keeper, 20 November 1895 in Barningham, County
              Durham, England.
             
Occupation    Inn Keeper, Ernest Victor Leggett's bc, 28 October 1896
              in Barningham, County Durham, England.
             
Occupation    Dock Labourer, Florence Louise Leggett's bc, 30 October
              1899 in Hartlepool, County Durham, England. [2]
             
Occupation    Ship plater's keeper, Thomas William Leggett's bc,
              January 1901.
             


Residence

Census        With parents, 30 March 1851 in High Street, Corton,
              Suffolk, England. [3a]
             
              Order: 6[3a]
             
              Name: George Daniel Leggett I[3a]
             
              Relation: Son[3a]
             
              Age: 13[3a]
             
              Where Born: Suffolk, Corton[3a]
             
Census        George and Mary in lodging house, 7 April 1861 in 9,
              Broadley Square, Hull, East Yorkshire, England. [4a]
             
              Order: 1[4a]
             
              Name: George Daniel Leggett[4a]
             
              Relation: Border[4a]
             
              Condition: Single[4a]
             
              Age: 23[4a]
             
              Occupation: Fisherman[4a]
             
              Where Born: Lowestoft[4a]
             
Residence     Crew List, 11 July 1882 in Scarborough, North Yorkshire.
             
Residence     Crew List, 14 July 1884 in Scarborough, North Yorkshire.
             
Census        With Thomas Garnham and family, late of Scarborough
              (births of children), 5 April 1891 in 88, High Street,
              Hartlepool, County Durham, England. [5a]
             
              Order: 1[5a]
             
              Name: George Daniel Leggett[5a]
             
              Relation: Visitor[5a]
             
              Condition: Widower[5a]
             
              Age: 53[5a]
             
              Occupation: Fisherman[5a]
             
              Employed: X[5a]
             
              Where Born: Suffolk, Lowestoft[5a]
             
Census        Border, with John Adamson Jenkinson, 2 April 1911 in 29,
              Acclom Street, West Hartlepool, Hartlepool, County
              Durham, England. [6a]
             
              Order: 3[6a]
             
              Name: George Daniel Leggett[6a]
             
              Relation: Border[6a]
             
              Age: 74[6a]
             
              Condition: Widower[6a]
             
              Occupation: Retired Fisherman[6a]
             
              Where Born: Corton, Suffolk[6a]
             

Marriages/Children

Mary Boynton

Marriage      20 February 1862 in Holy Trinity, Hull, East Yorkshire,
              England.
             
Children      Mary Jane Leggett[7a]
             
              George Boynton Leggett
             
Jane Adamson

Marriage      Possibly not ever married, 1892.
             
Children      Lavinia Adamson Leggett 1892
             
              Violet Mary Leggett
             
              George Daniel Leggett Jr
             
              Ernest Victor Leggett
             
              Florence Louise Leggett
             
              Thomas William Leggett 1901
             


Attributes

Occupation    Master of a Steam Trawler (Occupation Attribute)
             

Endnotes

1. Latter Day Saints, "FamilySearch"

    a: "England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975," database,
       FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JQXF-FVG :
       30 December 2014, George Leggett, 18 Jul 1837); citing
       CORTON,SUFFOLK,ENGLAND, index based upon data collected by the
       Genealogical Society of Utah, Salt Lake City; FHL microfilm
       918,530.

2. Genealogy, "Find my past", (FindMyPast)

3. UK Government, "UK Census 1851"

    a: HO107/1805 - 30 March 1851

4. UK Government, "UK Census 1861", (1861)

    a: RG9/3589/F? - 7 April 1861

5. UK Government, "UK Census 1891"

    a: RG12/4059/~F89 - 5 April 1891

6. UK Government, "UK Census 1911"

    a: 2 April 1911

7. "General register Office"

    a: LEGGETT, MARY JANE BOYNTON GRO Reference: 1863 J Quarter in
       SCARBOROUGH Volume 09D Page 310

Martin

[josey]

Could George have been in prison or an asylum at census dates & listed in censuses just as initials GL?

Is he named in any newspaper reports?

[Mart 'n' Al]

Josey, we have searched extensively for Leggetts at the BNA with no luck.  We've tried numerous 'wrong' spellings of his surname, but nothing as vague as GL or GDL.  We have not specifically tried asylums, hospitals and prisons.

I have been routinely logging all 'events' but until today i have not 'narrated' the story.  Doing this has swung me from being UNDECIDED to slightly more in favour of it being the same man.  And I hate fence-sitters!

Martin

[coombs]

You say he possibly married in 1862 to Mary Boynton but it looks like it was your guy. On Ancestry, in England Select Marriages I found a George Daniel Leggett in 1862 (aged 24) father Daniel Leggett, married Mary Boynton, 20 Feb 1862 at Holy Trinity, Hull.

Corton, well I know well as I live just 15 miles away. Lucky he just scraped in being born in civil reg, just a couple of weeks after civil reg begun.