Author Topic: 3rd Dragoon Guards John Parsons  (Read 922 times)

Offline Mehrtsgirl

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3rd Dragoon Guards John Parsons
« on: Sunday 17 June 18 02:18 BST (UK) »
Following advice from RootsChat members I searched the National Archives for relevant documents (muster rolls, pay, etc) for the 3rd Dragoon Guards, came up with a likely source (great match for dates and the right regiment) and requested a look up. Unfortunately the majority of pages for the Dragoon regiments are missing (just my luck)! My first question is: am I correct in assuming that if the National Archives don't have these documents then nobody does? Second question: are there other sources I should be looking for - I am particularly interested in confirming his birthplace, DOB, etc.? Third question: would it have been likely that the 3rd Dragoon Guards drew from a particular geographical area or did enlistments come from across the UK? TIA. :) JR
Holohan, Darenzy (various), Farmer, Peacock, Formby, Hannon, Parsons

Offline MaxD

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Re: 3rd Dragoon Guards John Parsons
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 17 June 18 11:04 BST (UK) »
Unfortunately the majority of pages for the Dragoon regiments are missing (just my luck)!

Just to be sure, were the NA clear that it was the pages for 3rd Dragoon Guards that were missing and not the 3rd Dragoons  - both regiments existed at the same time.  If it was 3rd DG that are missing for the period then the only other source to take advice from (very unlikely but worth a try) would be the 3rd Carabiniers museum https://www.cheshiremilitarymuseum.co.uk/3rd-carabiniers/

Recruiting at that time tended to be wherever the regiment was stationed.  Have another look at the history up to 1838 which you have which will show how often and to where it moved.

MaxD 
I am Zoe Northeast, granddaughter of Maximilian Double.
 
It is with great difficulty I share with you that in the early hours of 07 August 2021, Maximilian passed away unexpectedly but peacefully.

With deep sadness,
Zoe



Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline Ian999

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Re: 3rd Dragoon Guards John Parsons
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 17 June 18 17:18 BST (UK) »
JR,

1.   The names of the various regiments have been changed frequently just to confuse you! Taken from Wikipedia, these are the names in use at various times:

“3rd Dragoon Guards”

1685   began as the “4th Regiment of Horse”;
1746   renamed “3rd Regiment of Horse”;
1751   renamed “3rd Regiment of Dragoon Guards”;
1765   renamed “3rd (Prince of Wales’s) Dragoon Guards”;
1921   renamed “3rd Dragoon Guards (Prince of Wales’s)”;
1922   amalgamated to form “3rd/6th Dragoon Guards”.


“3rd Dragoons”

1685   detached from the “Duke of Somerset’s Royal Dragoons” to form “The Queen Consort’s Regiment of Dragoons”;
1714   renamed “The King’s Own Regiment of Dragoons”;
1818   renamed “3rd (The King’s Own) Regiment of (Light) Dragoons”;
1861   renamed “3rd (The King’s Own) Hussars”;
1921   renamed “3rd The King’s Own Hussars”;
1958   merged to form the “Queen’s Own Hussars”.


Note that at no time was either regiment officially known by its simple title and that for most of its life the 3rd Dragoons were actually Hussars, but the difference between the two escapes me.

Previously you were sure that John Parsons was a member of the 3rd Dragoon Guards. You might like to share that provenance with us to help add to the certainty ( or not).

2.   Anyway, since we know that John Parsons joined the Mounted Guard on 11 March 1834, I think you should be looking for pay lists in the first quarter of 1833.

My understanding is that the National Archives actually do have these records as follows:

General Muster Books and Pay Lists:
3rd Dragoon Guards  WO 12/211
3rd Dragoons   WO 12/583

They are not on-line and you have to ask for a copy to be made and emailed to you. You will need to ask for an estimate which is why you need to be precise on the period you want.

Offline Mehrtsgirl

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Re: 3rd Dragoon Guards John Parsons
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 17 June 18 23:09 BST (UK) »
Thanks MaxD and Ian999 (again!) for your invaluable help.
 
I asked for 3rd Dragoon Guards (simple term) and the reply referenced missing records ("the majority of pages") for "the Dragoon regiments". Should I understand this as a broad 'Dragoon' search in the documents I referenced?

I can't recall if the 3rd Dragoon Guards were mentioned in the records for John as a Mounted Guard (not to hand but I will check). John's death entry states under 'occupation': "Pensioner from the 3rd Dragoon Guards."

Thanks Ian999 I will look to the records you have referenced.

The name changes are head spinning! If John was in the 3rd Dragoon Guards then presumably it was actually the "3rd (Prince of Wales') Dragoon Guards".

Thanks MaxD - I will go back and have a look at the history. Are there any other (light) reads for this regiment anywhere that you are aware of?

Thanks again for sharing your expertise.

Regards. JR
Holohan, Darenzy (various), Farmer, Peacock, Formby, Hannon, Parsons


Offline MaxD

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Re: 3rd Dragoon Guards John Parsons
« Reply #4 on: Monday 18 June 18 09:43 BST (UK) »
JR

I'd be pretty confident that the jigsaw we put together in the other thread does place him in the 3rd (Prince of Wales's) Dragoon Guards as it was called in the relevant period.  I would have preferred NA to be more precise with their terminology, the purist would say that "the Dragoon Regiments" is not the same as "the Dragoon Guard Regiments" but others would argue that they are included in the first term.  Only real way of knowing is -  were they looking at the muster books for the 3rd DG.

The document cited by Ian999 is indeed for the 3rd DG but covers only the final period of his service 1833-1835.  Are they really saying that all the documents in that time period have the "Dragoon Regiments missing" or are they looking at something completely different? There are seven muster books that I can find that cover the whole likely period of 1818-1834., listed here:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_aq=3%20Dragoon%20Guards%20Muster&_nq1=6th&_dss=range&_sd=1818&_ed=1834&_ro=any&_p=1800&_st=adv
which include the one cited by Ian99.

I am just a tad concerned that NA are referring to something other than those, were these the documents you asked to be searched?

MaxD

Ian999 - the previous thread was http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=794004.msg6505853#msg6505853

I am Zoe Northeast, granddaughter of Maximilian Double.
 
It is with great difficulty I share with you that in the early hours of 07 August 2021, Maximilian passed away unexpectedly but peacefully.

With deep sadness,
Zoe



Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline Mehrtsgirl

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Re: 3rd Dragoon Guards John Parsons
« Reply #5 on: Monday 18 June 18 10:28 BST (UK) »
Hi MaxD,

The NA are only saying that the majority of pages are missing for the Dragoon regiments in WO 25/3850. That's what I asked for - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4400713.

My thinking - flawed! - was that it might pick something up in the latter period of his life as a pensioner. I did pull up a few other documents many outside of the timeframe required and some for a year or two within but as a first time user I certainly didn't compile the list you have provided.

I do apologise. I should have provided the link first up to be absolutely clear and I did not intend to mislead. JR



Holohan, Darenzy (various), Farmer, Peacock, Formby, Hannon, Parsons

Offline Regorian

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Re: 3rd Dragoon Guards John Parsons
« Reply #6 on: Monday 18 June 18 10:36 BST (UK) »
Why Dragoons and Dragoon Guards? Originally there were Horse, Foot and Guns. About 1750, the Horse regiments were redesignated as Dragoon Guards and to distinguish them from Dragoons. merely mounted infantry. As one would expect, Dragoon regiments got themselves accepted as cavalry over time. The dismounted role faded away. In the Napoleonic Wars, the numerous French dragoon regiments were just as effective in the dismounted role. 
Griffiths Llandogo, Mitcheltroy, Mon. and Whitchurch Here (Also Edwards),  18th C., Griffiths FoD 19th Century.

Offline Regorian

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Re: 3rd Dragoon Guards John Parsons
« Reply #7 on: Monday 18 June 18 10:42 BST (UK) »
Unfortunately, the NA have periodic culls of records. I went through the tank states of British armoured divisions in Normandy and beyond. June was there and I think July, but then jumped to October! What a pity, excellent detailed records, some with tanks by personal names.
Griffiths Llandogo, Mitcheltroy, Mon. and Whitchurch Here (Also Edwards),  18th C., Griffiths FoD 19th Century.

Offline MaxD

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Re: 3rd Dragoon Guards John Parsons
« Reply #8 on: Monday 18 June 18 13:01 BST (UK) »
All clear now!
The choice of document to search would have looked on the face of it, the right place.  What perhaps you were not made aware of (I wonder if we collectively could have advised in more detail) is that even if the pages were in the record, he may not have received a pension and wouldn't be there anyway.  At that time a soldier received a pension only if he was discharged with a disability attributable to his service or on reaching a full 24** years career. (See PS)

Thus I was banging on about the muster books (in another thread Ian999 referred to the pay rolls - same thing) which, although they don't contain personal information, would at least have him listed in the quarters he was with the regiment and drawing pay.

The muster book that Ian999 cited would be the one to start with as your info is that he went from 3rd DG to the Mounted Guards in 1834.  He should appear in the 1833 and 1834 quarters and then there would be reference in an 1834 quarter to him leaving.  To find his full career would entail backtracking from when he leaves to when he appears for the first time, clearly something that can only be done at Kew.

Do ask if I've managed to confuse you! 

MaxD

** From an 1848 edition of the Pay warrant which was I believe not different earlier, 12 years for Infantry and 24 for cavalry.

PS added - I am aware that his death cert had "pensioner from 3rd DG" on it but that may or may not have been technically accurate., pensioner often used to mean a man has retired.
I am Zoe Northeast, granddaughter of Maximilian Double.
 
It is with great difficulty I share with you that in the early hours of 07 August 2021, Maximilian passed away unexpectedly but peacefully.

With deep sadness,
Zoe



Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia