A relative who looks like Gareth Southgate

[Mart 'n' Al]

For anybody who's been trapped in a dusty archive for the last few weeks, Gareth Southgate is the manager of the England football team. His picture appears in every daily newspaper today.

I have a relative who shares the name Southgate and has a strong facial resemblance to Gareth, but I have been unable to find any connection between the families. My relative is descended from William James Southgate, born in Mortlake South West London in 1873. He was still in Mortlake on the 1911 census. If anybody really fancies a challenge, at which I already admit to have failed or at best proved inconclusive, please find a connection between William James Southgate and Gareth Southgate.  According to the current press, Gareth is 47 and his father is Clive Southgate, born 1936 in Watford. This information is all in the public domain and in most daily newspapers from the last few days. I confirm that I am not looking for any currently living people, just a connection.

Martin

[chris_49]

Hi - I expect you've already got that Gareth's grandmother was a Blackwell and therefore his (presumably) late grandfather can only really be Frederick L Southgate 1914 Islington, MMN Wilson. There are a few Southgate-Wilson marriages. Two possibles in London are Harold L Southgate married 1911 Holborn, and William Samuel T  1901 Lambeth. Is William James the very last Southgate you can tell us about?

[Mart 'n' Al]

Chris, I don't think I should name any descendants as I think I might be edited by a moderator. Anyway, I think this needs research further backwards as the more recent history is known by the family.

Martin

[chris_49]

Well I know I'm not supposed to do 1911 lookups but you or your relatives will have seen that entry for Wm James and family in Mortlake. I couldn't find them in earlier censuses and that's because the entry that describes them all as born Mortlake is in pencil and in a different hand. I expect they left off the birth information either by mistake or on purpose and somebody else added it later.

I'm pretty sure from the wife and children's details that they are Wm James Southgate b 1875 Lexden district (so fibbed about age because he was younger than his wife?) and she is Blanche Margarett b 1870 Lexden. They married 1896 Colchester and their children seem to have been born in that district. I found them in 1901 in Colchester with William and the two children right, plus her mother Margaret Barr (who had remarried) and adopted son Thomas Fuller. Blanche is unaccountablylisted as Bertha but I think that's an enumerator's mistranscription from his notes, a possible but serious one. There isn't a feasible Bertha Fuller.

Assuming Frederick Leonard Southgate is Gareth's grandfather, there are five male Southgate to female Wilson marriages that fit, but this was in the days of four names to a page so they can't all be correct. In fact the one from Guisborough probably is because there's a birth in that district. The first one in London is Willam Samuel T marrying Florence 1901, they had Ferdinand 1902 Kingston and Mabel 1903 Wandsworth and suffice to say I found them in 1911 - Ferdinand with his grandparents in Hindringham Norfolk where William was baptised, though he was born in Sculthorpe. OK there's another William baptised Hindringham next year but he's found single and staying in Norfolk.

I was bothered by this couple not having any children after that until possibly 1912-15 when there are three more including Frederick Leonard. I think it possible that these are children of Harold L Southgate if he married Edith K Wilson 1911 - this was the last year of four-names-on-a-page so he could equally well have married Annie Cole. This is going to need a marriage cert to sort out, or perhaps looking for them on the 1939 if they are stil living then. Harold Leonard was from Canning Town, born 1887 a son of Frederick (also of Canning Town) and Mary Ann per 1891 census.

In short I don't think either of these possibilities can be linked to the England manager. There may be a connecton but I think it would be too far back to indicate that the supposed facial resemblance is anything other than a coincidence. Southgate is a commoner surname than I thought.

[Mart 'n' Al]

Chris, thanks.  I have occasional 1911 census access, and the Fuller connections are in keeping with my findings.  I didn't want to prompt you too much.  I'm going to study your reply and comment further.

Martin

[chris_49]

I know I'm not supposed to look up the 1939 but I can tell you that it proves Harold L Southgate did marry Edith K Wilson and that the as yet unmarried Elsie D (1915) is with them and presumably their daughter. This doesn't prove that Frederick L (1914) who was elsewhere is her brother but all three siblings were born In Islington unlike the William Samuel T family who are always south of the river.

[chris_49]

I made a mistake in my notes earlier - Harold L Southgate's father Frederick was born Thirby Essex wherever that is - Google was not my friend. However a Frederick James Southgate was registered 1850 Tendring district which is close to Colchester. There's an A***y tree FWIW with him on which has the family in Kirby-le-Soken but no marriage and children, though it has his parents as john Southgate and Elizabeth Grant. There's also a public photo. He has a brother Edgar with whom Harold L was staying in 1911. However William James Southgate was a son of James and Emma.

[chris_49]

I found Frederick Southgate with his parents John and Elizabeth in 1851 and 1861 in Kirby-le-Soken. John born around 1824 Kirby so he may well be the John Southgate 15 (rounded down) with James Southgate 35 (likewise) in Little Bentley in 1841 which is not so far away. Birthplaces only "in county" of course.

However although James Southgate the presumed father of William James is consistently born Colchester, the only entries on which he can be found with his presumed parents have them as Thomas and Martha, he born "Hadleigh, Essex". This is down near Southend and a long way from Colchester, and I wonder if  Hadleigh, Suffolk is meant - this is a little nearer and near Martha's birthplace of Nayland, Suffolk which is even nearer to the city. The family were in Bow, London in 1861 but in Colchester in 1851.

He is probably the one born Colchester 1846 with the MMN Carter, but there's no such marriage between a Thomas and a Martha. There is a possible one in Thingoe (Suffolk) in 1840 (William S  and Mary Ann C and another 6 folk on the page) and another rather late in 1846 where there's a Thomas and a Mary Ann (same caveat). Tantalisingly, there's a Thomas marrying in Colchester in 1840 where there is only one bride on the page (and two grooms) But a marriage search on that quarter reveals no Carter or Martha in Colchester. Anybody else fancy a go?

[Mart 'n' Al]

Chris,
I know I would say this, but I think that this is such a topical challenge that people would be queuing up to help.  Perhaps everyone is too busy checking they haven't got any Swedish ancestry, ready for Saturday.

Martin