Bryn Glas Bach, Llandwrog - Strangers, lodgers, hopefully Family!

[Mabel Bagshawe]

Looks to me the William and Elizabeth Roberts in residence in 1881 are daughter and son in law of William and Jane

Do you have more sightings of  Ellen, Robert & Jane Williams so we can have a look at the info and se eif we can backwards or sideways to make  a link

[Glynm]

Hi Neil
Was Ellen Williams baptised in Llandwrog church? Checking on Findmypast I cannot find the record but more strangely on there is another record
Baptism 26 August 1877 Eli son of Robert & Jane Williams of Brynglas-bach labourer J BarkerPrice Rector

Glyn

[Neil_A]

So you can see the name change is an issue with the long standing inhabitants of one of the Bryn Glas Bach properties!

As was the baptism record of Ellen - I've deduced (wrongly?) that the "Eli" on the transcription records is a mistake despite the sex and name being changed. The dates, location and a search for an Eli on the GRO index suggest so.

As for my Jane and Robert Williams (my great * 2 grandparents btw) records of their time are fairly sparse for their time in Wales. I have another birth certificate of one of their children for 1882 Pen y ffridd Llanbeblig (Robert Williams) before a regular appearing in the census from 1891 in Liverpool (Hankin Street). Robert senior giving his mining experience to work on the ships. I have no other records of their time in Wales from birth to their move to the big city.

In summary this is what I have on the family (Robert Williams senior is the brick wall currently, hopefully!):


1891, 1901, 1911 censuses:
Robert (c. 1853, Caernarvon), Jane (c. 1856, Pwllheli), the children that survived were Ellen (1877), Robert (1882), and Margaret (1891) another 8 children didn't make it to 1911.

Jane's family (Roberts) I've researched extensively. I'm lucky to have a will that documents her and her siblings. Both David and Thomas Roberts were farmers, and I've made contact (and have a photo!!!!) of Ellen Roberts who became Ellen Pugh.

I also have know I have the right Robert (1882) and Ellen (1877) Williams (and hence locations) given their birth dates, 1939 censuses and their addresses in Liverpool that are known to my family.

Robert and Jane married in 1874 (per the 1911 census), though through extensive FindMyPast, Ancestry and GRO certificate purchases I've yet to find them tying the knot.

The other twist in this tale is both Robert (1882) and Ellen (1877) have a Jane Jones as their mother's maiden name. Could Jane have been married before, could their be two Janes? Queue another extensive research into Robert Williams and Jane Jones marrying in the 1870s!!

With no other (Welsh) records for Robert and Jane. (I still haven't got her birth certificate, though have her burial deeds, death cert in Liverpool etc) I'm focusing on the leads I do have their two locations at the time of their children's birth:

Bryn Glas Bach (looks like two properties) and Pen Y FFridd, Llanbeblig (looks like an area so makes connection more difficult).

As for the 1881 census - I have one potential 'sighting' of Jane with Ellen (but no Robert) in Caernarvon city but given they were a mining family (and no Robert) I cant be 100% sure.

So you can see why my spare room resembles some sort of police HQ investigation room with post it notes of prime suspects and a timeline trying to work through what evidence I have. 

[Glynm]

Hi Neil
A bit of a recap and clarification needed.
I assumed I traced the correct family to Liverpool for the 1891, 1901 and 1911 Census and notice an anomaly in the 1911 Census RG14 22119 which shows Ellen 9 years married to Robert Williams (son-in-law) born Waenfawr. Since you state that Ellen became Ellen Pugh was she previously married or have you assumed that her husband is actually her brother?
If you are happy that you have the right family then the following may be worth investigating although there is no guarantee it will provide any more information
I note that Ellen is missing from the 1891 Census in Liverpool RG12/2903/128/22 where the rest of the family is living at 67 Hankin Street. In the 1891 Census for Llanllyfni, which is the parish adjacent to Llandwrog, there is an Ellen Williams aged 13 staying with her aunt and cousins.
RG12/4655/141/3
Mary Thomas wife 27
Mary Alice Thomas daughter 2
Kate Ellen Thomas daughter 7mths
Ellen Williams niece 13 scholar
The enumerator may have been a bit lazy and dittoed everyone as being born in Llanllyfni, however moving onto the 1901 Census RG12/4655/77/9 I believe I have the right Mary Thomas although there is a discrepancy in the age.
Mary Thomas head widow 3? born Pwllheli
Mary Thomas Daur 11 Scholar  born Penygroes
John Thomas Son 4   Scholar born Penygroes
Ellen Jane Williams niece 10 born Portmadoc
David John Williams nephew 9 born Penygroes
Richard Williams Lodger 41 Quarryman born Pwllheli
There is a record of a Catherine Ellen Thomas born 1891 and dying in 1893 in Carnarvon
Could Mary Thomas be Jane Williams’ sister? I understand that you have done some research into Jane is there a record of Mary  or have you a census record for Jane in Pwllheli?

Glyn

[Neil_A]

Hi Glyn

This side of the family has kept me entertained for years!

You have the right family from 1891 through to 1911. I believe the 1911 census is wrong in that it lists Robert and Ellen (Junior) as being married together. Indeed you'll see that someone has written in son-in-law. I'm fairly confident that the Robert and Ellen (Junior) listed are in fact siblings, both of them listed as being part of the family rather than being resident. Especially as both live a few separate streets away (and both children ended up marrying in the same year i.e. 1902)!!

Ellen (Juniors) residence in 1891 remains a mystery and another loose end to help me break through my wall. Was she staying with relatives? Thanks for your listing I will need to take up that lead!

I stress junior as Ellen senior was the woman that became a Pugh.
My Jane was Jane Roberts, together with Ellen Roberts (Pugh) and David Roberts and Thomas Roberts. I'm fairly clued up on this clan. The mystery is Robert Williams senior (b. c. 1853) who married my Jane.

So Mary Thomas could be the sister of Robert Williams!

As for Jane Roberts/Williams and indeed Robert Williams (senior) I have no record of them in Wales other than the birth/baptism records of their children Ellen and Robert. Given their birth dates I deduce that they would have still been in Wales in 1881 - though I've seen no census record.

Incidentally Jane and her siblings Ellen, David, and Thomas resided in Llannor in 1861 I believe. (Their parents are buried there etc). Sadly that's one part of the 1861 census that is lost. I only pick up the trail of the other siblings from the 1880s onwards, which was annoying but I was managed to circumvent that wall by looking at newspaper articles and other records.

Hence why the areas of investigation for Robert Williams Senior has been either his marrage record to Jane (got no where), there census location in 1881 (still no joy) or the lead around Bryn Glas Bach.

Neil