Author Topic: Finding a death without paying for a death certificate  (Read 825 times)

Online Jebber

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Re: Finding a death without paying for a death certificate
« Reply #9 on: Tuesday 17 July 18 15:52 BST (UK) »
The two possible wives for the 1884 marriage were both also Mary, so it is hard to know who we are looking at in the census.

We need some response from the OP.
CHOULES All ,  COKER Harwich Essex & Rochester Kent 
COLE Gt. Oakley, & Lt. Oakley, Essex.
DUNCAN Kent
EVERITT Colchester,  Dovercourt & Harwich Essex
GULLIVER/GULLOFER Fifehead Magdalen Dorset
HORSCROFT Kent.
KING Sturminster Newton, Dorset. MONK Odiham Ham.
SCOTT Wrabness, Essex
WILKINS Stour Provost, Dorset.
WICKHAM All in North Essex.
WICKHAM Medway Towns, Kent from 1880
WICKHAM, Ipswich, Suffolk.

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Offline jonw65

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Re: Finding a death without paying for a death certificate
« Reply #10 on: Tuesday 17 July 18 16:56 BST (UK) »
The two possible wives for the 1884 marriage were both also Mary, so it is hard to know who we are looking at in the census.

Mary Williams
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=780925.0

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Offline MaxD

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Re: Finding a death without paying for a death certificate
« Reply #11 on: Tuesday 17 July 18 17:46 BST (UK) »
Mary Williams (Harrington)  had (referring to the other thread) 6 children, 5 surviving in 1911 and the children's names are different and the husband's trade is builders labourer.  She is not (on the face of it) the Mary Harrington nee Sulivan who had 10 children 9 surviving who, with husband Cornelius who was a clerk and can be traced happily back to the 1881 and maybe 1871 (trade is different on that).

As Jebber has remarked we need a bit more from the OP to sort out which Cornelius and Mary is the subject of this thread.  There were obviously two of them although the nee William eludes me in 1911.


MaxD
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Offline Jill Eaton

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Re: Finding a death without paying for a death certificate
« Reply #12 on: Tuesday 17 July 18 20:03 BST (UK) »
Firstly,
a big thank you to everyone who has taken the time to read and to reply.

Cornelius Harrington (DOB ranging from 1854 to 1866. He was actually born in 1854. There is no birth certificate but there is a catholic baptism record. He was baptised at St Mary's, Horseferry Road, Westminster.
He married Mary Williams (my gt grandmother) in 1884 at St Mary's, Horseferry Road.

On the 1884 marriage certificate it states that he was a widower, a builder's labourer and his father was Cornelius Harrington - labourer.

I've never been able to find him on the 1881 census. On at least one census he is listed as John - whether this was an alternative name or whether he had actually said "Con" and it was misheard is unknown. And his age varies between census and he was actually 8 years too YOUNG on his death certificate. I do know I have the correct Cornelius Harrington though as the other members of the family are people I can identify.

So to his first wife........A Cornelius Harrington married a Mary Sullivan in a catholic ceremony in 1875 at St Mary's Horseferry Road.
Cornelius gave the correct age. He was a labourer and his father was Cornelius Harrington, also a labourer. And though it isn't definite proof in 1875 Mary Sullivan lived at No. 4 Johnson's Court, Westminster, whilst in 1884 Mary Williams lived at No. 5 Johnson's Court, Westminster. It's an interesting coincidence if nothing else.

As for children from the first marriage?
I've checked the gov uk certificates online birth index for children of either gender from the years 1875 to 1884 with father called Harrington and Mother's surname Williams. There are a total of 5, 4 were born and registered in Wales but there is a more likely birth in St saviour Southwark in 1877. An Ann Harrington. If she was their child than Mary Sullivan was alive up to 1877. I'll only know for sure if I get the birth certificate. There is no sign of Ann on any later census' living with Cornelius and his second family.
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire

Offline Gan Yam

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Re: Finding a death without paying for a death certificate
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 17 July 18 20:36 BST (UK) »

As for children from the first marriage?
I've checked the gov uk certificates online birth index for children of either gender from the years 1875 to 1884 with father called Harrington and Mother's surname Williams. There are a total of 5, 4 were born and registered in Wales but there is a more likely birth in St saviour Southwark in 1877. An Ann Harrington. If she was their child than Mary Sullivan was alive up to 1877. I'll only know for sure if I get the birth certificate. There is no sign of Ann on any later census' living with Cornelius and his second family.
It looks like Ann Harrington born St Saviour is the youngest child of Michael and Annie Harrington (mmn Sullivan).  She is on the 1881 census with her parents, grandmother Sullivan and brothers and sisters.
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Offline MaxD

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Re: Finding a death without paying for a death certificate
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 17 July 18 20:49 BST (UK) »
That certainly eliminates the Cornelius, clerk born 1836 and Mary with the many children even from a second marriage.

Got it (the problem, not the solution!).  Are Catholic death/burials recorded somewhere separately - too many of FindMyPast Catholic records but what about original records of St Mary's Horseferry Road?

MaxD
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Offline Jill Eaton

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Re: Finding a death without paying for a death certificate
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 18 July 18 11:11 BST (UK) »


As for children from the first marriage?
I've checked the gov uk certificates online birth index for children of either gender from the years 1875 to 1884 with father called Harrington and Mother's surname Williams.

Which should have said:

"I've checked the gov uk certificates online birth index for children of either gender from the years 1875 to 1884 with father called Harrington and Mother's surname SULLIVAN"
 and it was Sullivan I searched - not Williams
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire

Offline Jill Eaton

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Re: Finding a death without paying for a death certificate
« Reply #16 on: Wednesday 18 July 18 13:13 BST (UK) »
it seems very unlikely that Cornelius and Mary 1st had any children.

I've searched the FindMyPast Catholic burials for both England and Ireland and there are none which fit between the possible years.

I've searched the Westminster rate books for Cornelius and there is a Cornelius (though of course if could be Cornelius senior rather than Cornelius the son, or not related to me at all!) living in Westminster between 1879 and 1883. The son was definitely living in Westminster in 1884 when he married Mary 2nd

So either Mary 1st, if she was living with her husband, must have either died in Westminster between those years (and I can't find a death for that) -  or the couple were living somewhere else between 1875 and 1879 and she died in a different parish/area before Cornelius lived back in Westminster in 1879 (if it's the Cornelius born in 1854 on the rate books)
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire

Offline Jill Eaton

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Re: Finding a death without paying for a death certificate
« Reply #17 on: Wednesday 18 July 18 13:22 BST (UK) »
There are a couple of possibilities age wise

Mary Harrington West Ham in 1877 aged 24 M qtr Vol 04A Page 17.
Or another in Bethnal Green 1878 aged 24 M qtr Vol 01C page 176

Cornelius and his second family did flit back and forth between Westminster, West Ham and Southwark over the years. Each one of his children was born at a different address. Cornelius was a dock labourer in 1891 so it's quite possible that he had worked there before and it's very possible that the death in West Ham is a good call.

With only two possibles for the probable years I think I can stretch the finances to ordering both these certificates.  ;D
Davis - Berkshire & London
Sutcliffe - Yorkshire & London
Harrington - Ireland and London
Fuller - Cambridgeshire and Essex
Waldron/Waldren - Devon & London
Frisby and Lee - Leicestershire
Hollingsworth - Essex
Williams - Ireland? and London
Ellis, Reed & Temple - London
Lane - ?
Surplice - Cambridgeshire
Elwood - Cambridgeshire