Author Topic: Unknown Woman from Hadfield, Derbyshire  (Read 1198 times)

Offline Lyrael

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 13
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Unknown Woman from Hadfield, Derbyshire
« on: Wednesday 18 July 18 00:10 BST (UK) »
Hi all,

I have a photograph in my family collection and we have no idea who it is.  I have guesses based on who she looks like but if anyone could tell me the date this was taken (based on her dress?) that would be really helpful!  I think she's related to my great great grandmother Mary Jane Ramsden (nee Lockwood) as they look similar.  Also, she was from the Hadfield area in Derbyshire which is mentioned on the photograph. I think it's either her or her sister or her mother, depending on the date of the photograph.

Are there any other details that could be taken from the photograph that might help me pin down who it is?  Any guesses on her age?  I was thinking early 20s but I'm really bad at identifying ages.  Any thoughts would be great!

I  am going to post a picture of Mary Jane Ramsden (nee Lockwood) as well.  Curious what people think about this being the same person.  I think they look similar.  Any thoughts?

Thanks!

Offline Treetotal

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 28,445
    • View Profile
Re: Unknown Woman from Hadfield, Derbyshire
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 18 July 18 10:17 BST (UK) »
Hi and welcome to Rootschat...The first one I would say was 1870s and I think there is a strong likeness between the two women and could easily be the same person...the earlobes are the same, they both have a narrow bridge to the nose and both have a small mouth. I think the first lady could be in her late teens or early 20s and is unmarried.
Carol
CAPES Hull. KIRK  Leeds, Hull. JONES  Wales,  Lancashire. CARROLL Ireland, Lancashire, U.S.A. BROUGHTON Leicester, Goole, Hull BORRILL  Lincolnshire, Durham, Hull. GROOM  Wishbech, Hull. ANTHONY St. John's Nfld. BUCKNALL Lincolnshire, Hull. BUTT Harbour Grace, Newfoundland. PARSONS  Western Bay, Newfoundland. MONAGHAN  Ireland, U.S.A. PERRY Cheshire, Liverpool.
 
RESTORERS:PLEASE DO NOT USE MY RESTORES WITHOUT PRIOR PERMISSION - THANK YOU

Offline DrDude45

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 546
  • Great minds... go unappreciated.
    • View Profile
Re: Unknown Woman from Hadfield, Derbyshire
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 18 July 18 20:49 BST (UK) »
Was your relative Jewish? If so, that could be a correlation to the lady in the first picture as her dress is covered in small stars of David.

The lady in the second picture's jaw also pushes forward, unlike that in the first picture.

Also, while the lobe of her ear does look similar, it seems to notch up slightly in the first picture as it leaves the base of her ear.



Just my 2 cents.
I just like to do photo restores.

Offline Lyrael

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 13
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Unknown Woman from Hadfield, Derbyshire
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 19 July 18 11:09 BST (UK) »
Thanks for your thoughts Treetotal and DrDude45!

Mary Jane was born in 1861 and married in 1878.  So it could be her just before she got married.  Her sister, Zipporah, was born in 1858 so if not Mary Jane, possibly Zipporah. Zipporah died in 1881 so I often wondered if it was a picture of her sister that she kept close after she died.

No she's not Jewish.  Very interesting about the stars of David!  I can't believe I never noticed them before.... Would you say the woman in the first picture was definitely Jewish based on her dress?  Or could there be another explanation?


Offline DrDude45

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 546
  • Great minds... go unappreciated.
    • View Profile
Re: Unknown Woman from Hadfield, Derbyshire
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 19 July 18 18:12 BST (UK) »
Thanks for your thoughts Treetotal and DrDude45!

Mary Jane was born in 1861 and married in 1878.  So it could be her just before she got married.  Her sister, Zipporah, was born in 1858 so if not Mary Jane, possibly Zipporah. Zipporah died in 1881 so I often wondered if it was a picture of her sister that she kept close after she died.

No she's not Jewish.  Very interesting about the stars of David!  I can't believe I never noticed them before.... Would you say the woman in the first picture was definitely Jewish based on her dress?  Or could there be another explanation?

There are other reasons. Could have been a gift, a costume, fashion statement, engaged to a Jewish man, etc. Those are all valid possibilities, but usually that type of cloth is more for those of the Jewish faith directly, so was going with the most direct possibility.

If it is Zipporah, and since Zipporah is a Biblical name, it could be her family (or a member of it) was from the Jewish faith or she is in costume as the Biblical character.

She could also be a good friend of your relative who happens to be Jewish and look similar.

My two cents anyway.
I just like to do photo restores.

Offline Treetotal

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 28,445
    • View Profile
Re: Unknown Woman from Hadfield, Derbyshire
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 19 July 18 18:26 BST (UK) »
I wouldn't wish to speculate on the decoration of the dress...it can be misleading and take you down the wrong path...I don't see the design as being a statement of a Jewish connection. Would the lady really have wanted to display her faith in a fashion item? Maybe the fabric designer was inspired by her faith.
Just my thoughts.

Carol
CAPES Hull. KIRK  Leeds, Hull. JONES  Wales,  Lancashire. CARROLL Ireland, Lancashire, U.S.A. BROUGHTON Leicester, Goole, Hull BORRILL  Lincolnshire, Durham, Hull. GROOM  Wishbech, Hull. ANTHONY St. John's Nfld. BUCKNALL Lincolnshire, Hull. BUTT Harbour Grace, Newfoundland. PARSONS  Western Bay, Newfoundland. MONAGHAN  Ireland, U.S.A. PERRY Cheshire, Liverpool.
 
RESTORERS:PLEASE DO NOT USE MY RESTORES WITHOUT PRIOR PERMISSION - THANK YOU

Offline DrDude45

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 546
  • Great minds... go unappreciated.
    • View Profile
Re: Unknown Woman from Hadfield, Derbyshire
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 19 July 18 18:36 BST (UK) »
I wouldn't wish to speculate on the decoration of the dress...it can be misleading and take you down the wrong path...I don't see the design as being a statement of a Jewish connection. Would the lady really have wanted to display her faith in a fashion item? Maybe the fabric designer was inspired by her faith.
Just my thoughts.

Carol

Was originally offered as a way to link the two Carol. It could indeed be just a fashion statement as well. However, since they know more details on the actors in play, I just offered a few items of note. I really only noticed the stars after changing the exposure of the picture to get a better look at her face. Depending on the region though, would vary the possibility temperament of local populaces' opinion of the Jewish faith (some regions were not as 'accepting' of Jews as others) as to if it could be influenced by the dressmaker.

It's also not uncommon for Jewish people to use their faith as a fashion statement in cloth. Google "Star of david fabric" or go to www.1-800-dreidel.com.  I found these while researching the dress, and found it quite interesting.

My two cents
I just like to do photo restores.

Offline Treetotal

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 28,445
    • View Profile
Re: Unknown Woman from Hadfield, Derbyshire
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 19 July 18 19:04 BST (UK) »
You make a reasoned argument Dr.Dude and I'm not intending to criticise your opinion just offering my thoughts.
Carol
CAPES Hull. KIRK  Leeds, Hull. JONES  Wales,  Lancashire. CARROLL Ireland, Lancashire, U.S.A. BROUGHTON Leicester, Goole, Hull BORRILL  Lincolnshire, Durham, Hull. GROOM  Wishbech, Hull. ANTHONY St. John's Nfld. BUCKNALL Lincolnshire, Hull. BUTT Harbour Grace, Newfoundland. PARSONS  Western Bay, Newfoundland. MONAGHAN  Ireland, U.S.A. PERRY Cheshire, Liverpool.
 
RESTORERS:PLEASE DO NOT USE MY RESTORES WITHOUT PRIOR PERMISSION - THANK YOU

Offline DrDude45

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 546
  • Great minds... go unappreciated.
    • View Profile
Re: Unknown Woman from Hadfield, Derbyshire
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 19 July 18 19:26 BST (UK) »
You make a reasoned argument Dr.Dude and I'm not intending to criticise your opinion just offering my thoughts.
Carol

Not offended at all Carol. Sorry if it came off that way. I have a rather 'mechanical' way of writing sometimes and it comes off as terse. Just offering my addendum to both my & your thoughts, sorry if it came off harsh or defensive.

Cheers!
I just like to do photo restores.