1891 Census

[antonymark]

Hi there,
A speculative 'what if' here. If, when registering the birth of Arthur Ernest, Mary Ann got confused by the registrar's question "and Mother's maiden name?" giving her mothers maiden name instead of her own this would account for the mysterious use of Knapp.
Regards, Tony.

[Mike Morrell (NL)]

There are a lot of Whines and Foxes around in 1891, and no-one nicely matches your GGM. I've found the records for your GGM's christening, 1st marriage in 1878 and 1901 census records. The most promising 1881 census record I've found is this one:https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7572&h=7958287&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=7451355477&_phstart=succes Source. If it's the right one, they had a one year-old boy "Henry" in 1881. On the GRO search page I also found a reference to a daughter 'Lilian' https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/indexes_search.asp.

My suggestion is that you not focus your 1891 search on GGM's surname but on on her forenames, probable location (Kent/Surrey) and the names of her children who might have lived with her.

[candrjm]

Quote from Mike M's post:

My suggestion is that you not focus your 1891 search on GGM's surname but on on her forenames, probable location (Kent/Surrey) and the names of her children who might have lived with her.

That's how I arrived at the Mary A Ellis and children in my previous post, Mary being born c1863 Kent, Lilian being born c1882 (surname at birth, Fox) Kent and Thomas being born c1888 (surname at birth Whines) London and living in the Newington St Saviour area as this was where Mary had a child in June 1891

Hazel was Mary's address on the birth certificate recorded as Uxbridge Street as well as the birth place for Arthur?

Another child??

WHINES, HANNAH  MABEL      mother's maiden name KNAPP      
GRO Reference: 1886  S Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 126    

this could be her in 1891:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QJXB-7T2

and 1901 census:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:X9F4-NVZ

Looking for a possible family link:

Possible marriage for Sarah and William Miller

Marriages Mar 1885   

Miller    William Edward         Dartford    2a   511   
Windsor    Sarah Ann         Dartford    2a   511


possible birth reg for their child Frank:

MILLER, FRANK  EDWARD      mother's maiden name WINDSOR      
GRO Reference: 1891  S Quarter in DARTFORD  Volume 02A  Page 492


possible birth reg for Sarah Ann Windsor:

WINDSOR, SARAH  ANN      mother's maiden name WHINES      
GRO Reference: 1860  S Quarter in DARTFORD  Volume 02A  Page 254



 Added:

Possibly Sarah Ann with parents and siblings in 1861 census:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q2MP-WKF2


Possible marriage for Sarah Ann's parents:

Marriages Dec 1846   
Whines    Sarah         Peterboro    15   726   
Winsor    Samuel         Peterbro'    15   726    

[Hazelb1944]

Hello Candrjm and thanks for reply.  Yes regarding the birth cerificate Arthurs birth is listed as   
36 Uxbridge street as well as fathers name address - J Whines  also Uxbridge street Newington.

Hannah whines is Mary Ann's mother and her maiden name was Knapp.

The Hannah Whines on the 1891 census was 4 years old. So this cant be related to my tree.
 
Mike Thomas Whines is Mary Ann's brother born 1865 3 years younger than Mary Ann.

I have all the details already of her first marriage with the 2 children and then her second marriage
with 5 children . 

Her son Henry Fox is a boarder at age 11 with a family called Mason in Belvedere on the 1891 census.

I thought I had all the details of the family with the exception of finding Mary Ann on the 1891 census.   So I will have to continue doing some investigating and organising my file to see if there are any mistakes I have made as can be very confusing.
Thank you all for all the help and suggestions.  Its all started me thinking again.

[candrjm]

Hi Hazel,

quote from your last reply:

The Hannah Whines on the 1891 census was 4 years old. So this cant be related to my tree


I added this Hannah Mabel Whines born 1886 as a possible child of Mary Ann as Mary seems to have registered her children as surname Whines mother's maiden name Knapp and Mary Ann was living in the St Saviour area in 1891.

Sarah Ann Windsor's mother Sarah Windsor (nee Whines) seems to have come from Northamptonshire so maybe a connection to Joseph Whines (Mary Ann's father) who was also from Northamptonshire

[candrjm]

Hi Hazel

Possibly 10 children born to Mary Ann

First two children with husband Henry Fox both born Dartford:

FOX, HENRY  GEORGE      mother's maiden name WHINES      
GRO Reference: 1879  S Quarter in DARTFORD  Volume 02A  Page 426

FOX, LILIAN        mother's maiden name WHINES      
GRO Reference: 1881  S Quarter in DARTFORD  Volume 02A  Page 437    



Then Mary moves to St Saviour between 1881 and 1886 and has 5 more children (who might not be the children of Moses Knapp):

WHINES, HANNAH  MABEL   mother's maiden name KNAPP (named after Mary's mum??)
GRO Reference: 1886  S Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 126   

WHINES, THOMAS     mother's maiden name KNAPP      
GRO Reference: 1887  D Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SURREY  Volume 01D  Page 142    

WHINES, ARTHUR  ERNEST      mother's maiden name KNAPP      
GRO Reference: 1891  S Quarter in ST SAVIOUR LONDON  Volume 01D  Page 89    

WHINES, ALFRED        mother's maiden name KNAPP      
GRO Reference: 1894  S Quarter in ST SAVIOURS LONDON  Volume 01D

WHINES, RUTH  MAUD      mother's maiden name KNAPP      
GRO Reference: 1897  M Quarter in ST SAVIOUR SOUTHWARK LONDON  Volume 01D  Page 118



Then Mary moves to Bromley between 1887 and 1889 and has 3 more children with Moses Knapp


KNAPP, ROBERT  WILLIAM      mother's maiden name WHINES      
GRO Reference: 1899  S Quarter in BROMLEY  Volume 02A  Page 510

KNAPP, SYDNEY        mother's maiden name WHINES        
GRO Reference: 1901  J Quarter in BROMLEY  Volume 02A  Page 506

KNAPP, GEORGE  FREDERICK      mother's maiden name WHINES      
GRO Reference: 1904  S Quarter in BROMLEY  Volume 02A  Page 55

[Hazelb1944]

Have been looking at an old message on Ancestry from a descendant of the whines.  He told me that his Great Grandmother was Hannah Mabel Whines and was adopted by the Miller Family in Dartford Kent.  He had managed to trace her birth certificate and her parents on the certificate were  Joseph and Hannah Whines.  So this ties up with your mention of Millers.

Thank you for all your replies and suggestions.  It seems I have a lot to investigate yet.