Author Topic: Died intestate, resident in England also owned land/property in Scotland  (Read 1824 times)

Offline Tickettyboo

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Hope this is understandable, I know what I want to know but putting it down as a question is difficult
:-)

Man died in 1938. He was living in England (and had been doing so for 3 years), where he owned a house and at least one business. He also owned, at the time of his death, land and property and was still a partner in a business - all in Scotland.
I can see on the probate Calendar for England & Wales that Administration of his estate was granted to his widow and son. As its Admin and not Probate that indicates that he died intestate.

Going to take me a while to get to somewhere (Edinburgh probably) to check the Calendar of confirmations for 1938 onwards to see if there is any mention of a confirmation in Scotland.

Does anyone know if the property held in Scotland would need to be dealt with through the Scottish system, in addition to what was obviously done in England? Or would the English Probate system have covered all his assets?

Boo

Offline Rosinish

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Re: Died intestate, resident in England also owned land/property in Scotland
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 19 July 18 00:35 BST (UK) »
If you could post details of the person/any details of areas of the properties if known i.e. County/Town or other, this may help to find him in the VRs (Valuation Rolls) which stop at 1935 but he may have been listed in that year & prior as you say he'd been living in England for 3 yrs in 1938?
This of course would depend on his age when he died whether it's likely he had property in Scotland pre 1935 as you don't give any clues in your post?

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Rosinish

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Re: Died intestate, resident in England also owned land/property in Scotland
« Reply #2 on: Thursday 19 July 18 00:39 BST (UK) »
Regarding property in Scotland & the fact he was living in England it would have to be dealt with through the Scottish courts.

Annie
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline Tickettyboo

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Re: Died intestate, resident in England also owned land/property in Scotland
« Reply #3 on: Thursday 19 July 18 01:00 BST (UK) »
Thanks Rosinish,

I already have details of the property he owned in Shetland -  got the entry from the Sasine Abridgements today for the largest value land/property he owned, dated 1921. Valuation rolls for 1925, 1930 and 1935 confirm he was the proprietor and there's another entry in the Sasine Abridgements dated well after the man's death as a Notice of Title to transfer title to his son.
There's no doubt that he owned land, property and business in Scotland in addition to the property and businesses he had in England, all of which he owned well before he died and would have been part of his total estate.

What I don't know is if the grant of administration, issued by the Probate Court in England would be enough for the Scottish requirements or if they would have had to sort of double up and also get Confirmation in Scotland to cover the assets held there.

Are you saying that would depend on how old he was / how long he'd had his main residence in first Scotland then England/ how long he had owned the assets in either country?

Boo


Offline Rosinish

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Re: Died intestate, resident in England also owned land/property in Scotland
« Reply #4 on: Thursday 19 July 18 01:54 BST (UK) »
"What I don't know is if the grant of administration, issued by the Probate Court in England would be enough for the Scottish requirements or if they would have had to sort of double up and also get Confirmation in Scotland to cover the assets held there.

Are you saying that would depend on how old he was / how long he'd had his main residence in first Scotland then England/ how long he had owned the assets in either country?"


(1) From what I read in your 1st paragraph, this would (possibly) in effect, entitle his son to inherit the properties/land etc. as he was named/indicated (I assume) as son although I'm not 100% sure?

Scots & English laws were/are different but in Scotland, I believe a child would automatically inherit (as far as I know) although there would be some official procedure of which I can't comment on how this would work?

Someone else with more knowledge may advise different?

(2)..(2nd paragraph) What I was referring to, was being able to find your ancestor/properties on earlier VRs as there were no clues to his age or anything else for him to be listed earlier (if that makes sense)?  ;)

Annie

Edit...Assuming his wife was deceased as she would automatically inherit in Scotland rather than the son?
South Uist, Inverness-shire, Scotland:- Bowie, Campbell, Cumming, Currie

Ireland:- Cullen, Flannigan (Derry), Donahoe/Donaghue (variants) (Cork), McCrate (Tipperary), Mellon, Tol(l)and (Donegal & Tyrone)

Newcastle-on-Tyne/Durham (Northumberland):- Harrison, Jude, Kemp, Lunn, Mellon, Robson, Stirling

Kettering, Northampton:- MacKinnon

Canada:- Callaghan, Cumming, MacPhee

"OLD GENEALOGISTS NEVER DIE - THEY JUST LOSE THEIR CENSUS"

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Died intestate, resident in England also owned land/property in Scotland
« Reply #5 on: Thursday 19 July 18 07:30 BST (UK) »
In effect Probate had to be applied for twice!
Once in England/Wales, and once in Scotland.

I had to do something similar recently for a friend who died, and had property on the Isle of Man, but had shares which had to be dealt with by English Probate!

There are 4 main Legal Jurisdictions to be considered:
England & Wales
Scotland
Northern Ireland (or simply Ireland before 1922)
and the Isle of Man

All 4 have very different Probate procedures, and only deal with property and assets within their own Jurisdiction.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Tickettyboo

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Re: Died intestate, resident in England also owned land/property in Scotland
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 19 July 18 08:22 BST (UK) »
In effect Probate had to be applied for twice!
Once in England/Wales, and once in Scotland.


Thank you, I suspected that may be the case. I vaguely remember seeing in the England & Wales Probate Calendars something to the effect of a probate being 're-sealed' and mention of Edinburgh, and presumed it had been done in one country (to deal with assets held there) and then passed along to deal with the remaining assets outside the first country's jurisdiction, but had no idea if that would only apply if there was a will.

I've sent an enquiry to an archives that may have copies of the calendars of confirmations to see if there is a mention as the available online ones stop way short of 1938.

Boo


Offline Tickettyboo

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Re: Died intestate, resident in England also owned land/property in Scotland
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 19 July 18 08:36 BST (UK) »

(1) From what I read in your 1st paragraph, this would (possibly) in effect, entitle his son to inherit the properties/land etc. as he was named/indicated (I assume) as son although I'm not 100% sure?

Scots & English laws were/are different but in Scotland, I believe a child would automatically inherit (as far as I know) although there would be some official procedure of which I can't comment on how this would work?

Someone else with more knowledge may advise different?

(2)..(2nd paragraph) What I was referring to, was being able to find your ancestor/properties on earlier VRs as there were no clues to his age or anything else for him to be listed earlier (if that makes sense)?  ;)

Annie

Edit...Assuming his wife was deceased as she would automatically inherit in Scotland rather than the son?


Thanks but I was just looking to find out about probate/confirmation procedure in a case where the deceased owned assets in both countries.

My fault, I suspected that I hadn't phrased the original question as clearly as I might. It had been a long,busy, but fruitful day for family history here and my brain was slightly fried by information overload.

Often the case, I either know very little about someone on my tree  or I find that one snippet that leads to LOTS more info.
I do appreciate your input and your points will be relevant when I get to the stage of moving forward to obtain copies of any admin/confirmation documents, so your help will come in useful.

Boo

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Re: Died intestate, resident in England also owned land/property in Scotland
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 19 July 18 09:14 BST (UK) »
Bear in mind that the purpose of probate or confirmation is basically just to establish the Executor's legal right to deal with the estate.

If probate or letters of administration were granted in England, the Executors did not have to go through the full process in Scotland. The Scottish courts would accept the English probate and it would be shown as such in the calendars of confirmation.

In the converse, a confirmation granted in the Scottish courts would be 'sealed' in the English courts.

For example in 1938 Henderson Georgina Isabella Waddell of 10 Park-terrace Crosshill Glasgow widow died 28 February 1938 at Windermere Westmorland. Confirmation of May Cochrane Henderson or McCallum widow and Margaret Thomson Henderson spinster. Sealed London 5 July.

Sorry I can't quote from a Calendar of Confirmations because I don't have a copy handy and I can't think offhand of anyone in my tree whose English probate was rubber-stamped in Scotland.
Never trust anything you find online (especially submitted trees and transcriptions on Ancestry, MyHeritage, FindMyPast and other commercial web sites) unless it's an image of an original document - and even then be wary because errors can and do occur.