Sarah Elizabeth Burrows, b 1887-1889; d 1953

[MomsandPops]

I am trying to find any insight/information about my great grandmother, Sarah Elizabeth Burrows, born around 1887-1890, possibly in Pontypool, Monmouthshire, Wales. Died in the Coed e Gric / Griffithstown poor house in 1953. She was Roma, and had two daughters: my grandmother Dinah Burrows, b. 1908, Pontypool – d. 1998 San Francisco, CA; and her (half) sister Sarah Elizabeth (Sally) Burrows, b. 1910, Pontypool - d. 1935, Los Angeles, CA.

The two daughters identified themselves as Roma, although there is little detail about that. I am aware that there was a Romani encampment outside Pontypool around the time of her birth. My grandmother and her sister each emigrated to the US in 1929 and 1930, in part to get away from the maltreatment of Roma in England.

I have tried everything I know to figure out Sarah Elizabeth’s family of origin. My mother speculated possibly Scotland, because they used to receive (dictated) letters from her, and some of them referred to “wee little ones”.

My grandmother Dinah had a deep distrust and dislike of authorities, which lasted her entire life. She refused to answer anything about her family, other than to equate anti-Gipsy discrimination as somewhat like the treatment of African Americans in the US.  However, my mother, Diana Elizabeth Burrows (b. 1929, St. Giles, London) described my Grandma Dinah in terms of what my mom called Roma culture: frequent moves; never turning away someone who knocked on her door for food, no matter how little there was; handcrafting skills; not accumulating possessions; and several key moments when she demonstrated that she had second sight, or deep intuition, about family members. (Their description, not mine.)
•   DNA appears to indicate a relationship with Stanleys, and Coopers. Possible source of Burrows surname from Berrows/Burrows, Matthews/Mathews, Couzens, however they seem pretty settled out.
•   One person, Allen Burrows, would be a possible link among the families.
•   Per electoral registers, Allen Burrows lived together with Dahlia/Daylia Stanley after her children with William Rose were born. However, Sarah Elizabeth was born before Dahlia’s children with William Rose. And, depending on the actual birth year, Dahlia may have been pretty young to have children when Sarah Elizabeth was born.

Thoughts? Insights? I am comfortable knowing that women traditionally have had to live by whatever means they could, so no need to dance around that topic. But I’m hoping that someone might have something to share.

I posted a similar question on the Digger Stanley board, which I hope is ok to have done. I’d appreciate any feedback at all that might help break through the proverbial brick wall!
Jan

[suzard]

I think some of the trees have got a little muddled - there is a tree for Allen Burrows - and sarah Elizabeth is listed in it but it seems she is a Northampton England b Sarah Elizabeth.
I would purchase some certificates to see what details are given - the best way to order certificates is online through the GRO - there are details on this site how to order - certificates are less than £10 and I think there is an even cheaper way now of getting one via e mail.

First of all this looks like sarah Elizabeth's birth reg
FreeBMD
Sarah Elizabeth it seems was born in Pontypool Monmouthshire Wales
At the age of 22 she was in the Pontypool Workhouse Griffithstown Monmouthshire Wales with 2 children two year old Dinah Burrows and one year old Elizabeth Burrows - so workhouse records may be worth chasing up as maybe the children were born in the workhouse. Sarah Elizabeth had been working as a general servant.
I know unmarried mothers were not treated very well in England at that time especially if their family didn't take them in -so possibly it was similar in Wales - a Great Aunt of mine went into the workhouse when she had an illegitimate child and eventually she went into an asylum for many years - having an illegitimate child was considered to be having a mental illness in some communities
Maybe this was the reason why our ancestors dislike authority
When Dina Burrows left Southampton for the US 26 Mar 1930 she was described as age 22 housewife and Diana Burrows was 4 months old The address given as to where they had been staying was 77 Fenton St Islington

I will look up a few further details

Suz

[MomsandPops]

Oh my goodness! I am so grateful for your reply! I definitely will order any certificates I can. I have one for each of Sarah Elizabeth's two daughters (Dinah and Sarah Elizabeth/Sally), as well as Sarah E's death cert. I know from family notes that they lived in town in Pontypool -- 10 West Place -- at some point, but don't know if that was one or the other of the girls, or them and their mom. They don't show in that address in the census, but I would imagine it would have been a pretty lucky thing for the tree if they had coincided with a census!

(BTW, I wouldn't be surprised a bit if I was muddled.) How were you able to find the information about a Sarah Elizabeth with Allen Burrows? I have only been able to place him in the prior generation, with Dahlia Stanley. For instance, Dahlia and he were in an altercation in a bar in 1900; his army papers specify Dahlia as next of kin; etc.

This whole discovery process has been so exciting. I'm only sorry that my Moms isn't here to enjoy it. It would have meant so much to her.

[MaureeninNY]

I'm a little confused.
On Ancestry
New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957 results for D*Na* Burrows

She lists Mrs. Emily STANLEY as friend living at 77 Minten St. S.E.

Would that possibly translate to 77 Mintern St /Shoreditch area?

Also-the sister arrived when? I think I see her in 1930 with husband "Ch*t". When did they marry?

Sorry! More questions than answers.

Maureen

[MomsandPops]

Yes, it all brings up so many questions, doesn't it?

Dinah and Diana sailed on the SS Majestic, White Star Line, out of Southampton, on 26 March, 1930. Dinah was 22, and Diana 7 months old. In Diana's 1953 US Naturalization Application, she wrote that their destination had been with her aunt, Sally Nichols, in Los Angeles. That was news to me -- I knew Sally had preceded them to the US, but I don't know at what age -- or what name. The paperwork said she resided at 101 South Norton in Hollywood. I had never heard anything about her having married, or the name Nichols, until I received all of Moms' paperwork from my father a couple of weeks ago. From my mother's recounting, I don't believe she would have been married, but that could all be untrue. Sally committed suicide over a romantic breakup (with a "rich Hollywood type") when my mother was little. Using the name Sally Nichols, I was finally able to find a matching name in the 1935 California death registry. I am waiting for a response from California regarding further information -- such as next of kin, where buried, etc.

I'll have a look again -- I wouldn't have thought to look for a marriage for Sally, given what I had been told about her. And I have the US Immigration tickets for my mom and grandmom, with the ship name, departure city, and arrival date -- but I don't find the destination information on the passenger list. (On the passenger list, their names are swapped. I would not be surprised either way:  that it was intentional on the part of Dinah, or that the shipping line made a mistake.)

I am very grateful for your response and assistance! I know the story is out there somewhere!

[suzard]

I'm a little confused.
On Ancestry
New York, Passenger Lists, 1820-1957 results for D*Na* Burrows

She lists Mrs. Emily STANLEY as friend living at 77 Minten St. S.E.

Would that possibly translate to 77 Mintern St /Shoreditch area?

Also-the sister arrived when? I think I see her in 1930 with husband "Ch*t". When did they marry?

Sorry! More questions than answers.

Maureen

now this is interesting - wonder if emily Stanley is related to Dahlia Stanley?
I am in the middle of trying to sort out the tree on A******y which I believe may be yours ??
Don't be offended but I am trying to double check and source some information to try to help you

Regards
Suz

[MomsandPops]

LOL There is no way I would be offended! I was sincere in asking for help! And of course, I have the complicating factor of family stories, which may or may not be accurate.... you know how that goes!
My tree is a combination of the cheeky names my brother had for our parents - M*ms and P*ps, and it is public.

Best, and thanks,
Jan

[suzard]

this is a slow process but
We are certain Sarah Elizabeth Burrows age 22 with daughters Dinah and (entered as) Elizabeth are in the workhouse in 1911 all b Pontypool
I have tried looking for Sarah Elizabeth birth reg or her in earlier census -no joy yet
Birth registrations I did find a birth reg FreeBMD Dec qtr 1888 Pontypool for Sarah Elizabeth Rose
I found Allen Burrows army record and (as you say) his next of kin was given as Dahlia(or Delia) Stanley, friend, known as Mrs Burrows
From Dina and Sarah Elizabeth (Sally)'s birth reg what address is given and who is named as mother-any maiden name??
Also who was the informant on Sarah Elizabeth 's 1953 Death

Suz

[MomsandPops]

Well, that would certainly make sense, wouldn't it? To be registered perhaps as William Rose's daughter? Very interesting. (And yes -- I am *finally* learning not to jump to conclusions! lol)

I put Dinah's birth cert up on the site where I have the tree; no father's name, address 4 West Street, Pontypool. Mother's name Sarah Elizabeth Burrows.  I know my Moms used to say that she was "the first one in a long line of moms who was married". (She used to laugh at the vogue of not marrying that really took hold in my teens -- said she went to all that work not realizing she'd be in fashion!)

Sarah Elizabeth's death cert is also now up in the tree. I'd sent away for the death certificate after finding the date on BMD. I was wrong when I said I had Sally's -- I got muddled with Dinah's daughter Sally's.

Thanks so much for helping!