Wilsher blood line, Nottingham, Joseph Wilsher

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What i think i have learned from coming on the internet is the fact i have been able to not only meet and exchange information with people but also there is this vast catalogue of written history available to people like me who surrounded by facts that are limited to that which you were raised with, if things passed you by as in knowledge well in the past history was gone forever, now when i was growing up i was told all about Gipsy story's and a few names, i would watch my Mother go out Hawking, knocking the doors, i went lots of times to, there was lots of the Gipsy language as in words that held a meaning to every day things, my Mother told of the times when she was young and Relative then used Gipsy words in everyday talk, when people die something always dies with them.

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Hi

So is this right, Edward Wilsher 1760 married a Letitia Smith 1760. Then their Son William 1811 married Lydia Jones 1812. Sue the founder of the Romany genes Web Site found me this Census several yeares ago, is this the William and Lydia that you talk of.
   
People not in houses*
1861*Pontefract, Yorkshire
William Willshaw abt 1811 Longbillington, Nottinghamshire, Head Tinner & Brazier
Lidia Willshaw abt 1812 Codbrough, Nottinghamshire, Wife
Joseph Willshaw abt 1846 Darrington, Yorkshire Son
 Lidia Willshaw abt 1848 Lincoln, Lincolnshire Daughter
//
Walter Nelson abt 1829 Scotland Son-in-Law
Lotis Nelson abt 1829 Stowe, Lincolnshire, Daughter
Henry Nelson abt 1853 Wakefield, Yorkshire, Grandson
George Nelson abt 1854 Wakefield, Yorkshire, Grandson
Harriet Nelson abt 1856 Carlton, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
Mary Nelson abt 1858 Pontefract, Yorkshire, Granddaughter
//
William Blewitt abt 1809 widow Stamford, Lincolnshire, Head tinner & Brazier
Sarah Blewitt abt 1837 widow London, Middlesex, Daughter-in-Law
Valuza Blewitt abt 1856 York, Yorkshire, England Granddaughter
Enis Blewitt abt 1860 Hull, Yorkshire, England
//
John Lee abt 1797 Woodbridge, Suffolk, Head
Charlott Lee abt 1791 Woodbridge, Suffolk, Wife
Tenna Lee abt 1834 Livingston, Norfolk, Daughter
Mary Boss abt 1791 Farnham, Suffolk, Widow
John Phillips abt 1832 Thorne, Yorkshire Tinner & Brazier
   
Do you see also how it states William was born at Longbillington, Nottinghamshire. Now look at the
"The Lincolnshire Travellers Birth, Marriage and Death Certificates and Parish Register Collection"
 http://rtfhs.org.uk/the-lincolnshire-travellers-birth-marriage-and-death-certificates-and-parish-register-collection/
This is the Web Site named the Romany Travellers Family History Society, they are listing Edward and Letitia as Wiltshires, you name them as Wilshers and the Sue says Willshaws.

WILTSHIRE Edward
Bp 14 May 1826, Timberland, Lincolnshire, son of Edward and Lydia Wiltshire, Travellers.
WILTSHIRE John
Bp 10 April 1833, Woolsthorpe, Lincolnshire, son of John and Sarah Wiltshire, of Snelson, Derbyshire, Chair Mender.
WILTSHIRE William
Bp 19 July 1805, Long Bennington, Lincolnshire, son of Edward and Letitia Wiltshire, a Traveller.

Look at the record just above of William 1805 saying Long Bennington, Lincolnshire, son of Edward and Letitia Wiltshire. I have been trying to find Longbillington, Nottinghamshire where it says in the Census record at the top from 1861*Pontefract, Yorkshire
William Willshaw abt 1811 Longbillington, Nottinghamshire, Head Tinner & Brazier

Well i have looked and looked and it seems Longbillington is just an acient field, look at this quote from this book

Thomas Cox - 1738 - ‎Great Britain
... and in a Field belonging to it, are the Ruins (as the Inhabitants believe) of a Town called Long Billington, which, for many Ages hath been demolished.
 
I was wandering what do you think, and do you see in these three acounts that i have wrote above, one from you, one from Sue and one from the R.T.F.H.S. how Wilsher Wiltshire and Willshaw is Transcribed as thier name, would you tell me of the record you found of Edward Wilsher and Letitia.

And do not forget they used the different names themselfs, they new what they were doing, i wrote of this also on the Dan Boswell posts, my Mother told me long ago that they would evan have it out among themselfs as to which was the real name, my Mother told me which one Her own Mother would talk of as being the oridgenal one, but i will not say the true name. I was wandering is Longbillington Nottinghamshire, and Long Bennington, Lincolnshire just a mix up, or was they just travelling around, and where was the Old Edward born,  do you think he was like a local man of an area who married into the Smiths or did everything start with is Son William, or did he have a Dad who travelled about, what do you think, you have done a very big amount of research, i new this from your first post, just put the lot on in one go. I will put as much on about the Woodwards for you that i have found, do not research to hard though, you will just burn out and not enjoy the exsperience. I was reading sometimes right through the night till morning doing research about the times of Daniel Boswell, well i would read many books page to page and my eyes just wanted to close, but i would not let a single page be unread incase i missed something then all of a sudden after several books i noticed all you had to do was look at the index at the back of the book, wow, then i realised lots of the old books had all the names and places in the pagers at the back of the book listing the page name to read, i was evan reading the index of the books but did not realise what it all meant, when the penny dropped i just could not believe how stupid i was, never mind.

Tuesday 6 October 1908 Derbyshire Courier
POACHINQ AFFRAY. Another “Suspect’’ in Custody. ‘‘l am innocent ; i know nothing about it,” was the answer of Thomas Wiltshire, alias Wilshaw and Wilsher, who until recently resided at 40, Apple Street, Sheffield, and occupation is a hawker, who was brought up to Court on Monday, on a charge of having inflicted greivous bodily harm on Sergeant Butchby and Police-constable Aves, at Tolley

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Hello, I use the name Wilsher but I have seen the same blood lines go under Wiltshire, Willshire, Wilsher, Wilsher... I mostly use Wilsher because its my last name and I cant be bothered to keep writing out a list of last names.

Yes that's the correct 1861*Pontefract census, for William Willshaw and Lidia Willshaw, this is the family I have mostly been researching, they have a number of kids and grandchildren, I believe they marry Nelson, Boyling, Woodword, Holmes, Smith, Winter, Elliott, and other families.

I believe Lotis Nelson to be Lotis Wilshaw-Birth 1829, married Walter Nelson 1829 in 2 Jun 1845.
Joseph Willshaw abt 1846, married Maria Knight abt 1849 in 1864.

The aspects of Edward and Letitia I have seen are mostly from the Ellitott Book and what i have seen other people map out in trees, I have not put a great amount of time in researching them.

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 I have looked for the Nelsons, i wrote about them to on the Dan Boswell posts, i am sure they to are named Nielson sometimes, they are from Scotland as the Census says, i have many records about Scotland my Great Grandmother said She was born there, but no record is known, i will soon do a research for her, everybody tells lies though, you have to believe me lots of the records may be wrong for several ways, people have tryed to research in a way that writers have once wrote, did you read the record about Joseph and Mary Woodward that i put on in Dans posts, its just you say of the South West connection in your Fathers life in the middle 1900s, how come Joseph and Mary was heading that way back the 1890s, i offten wander about this record, why was they heading South, who was they going to meet.

Gloucestershire  1891 
 
Petty Sessions, Berkley,  Thursday. Joseph Wiltshire, Mary Ann Woodward, and Jemima Gasby,
Gipsies travelling with vans, were arrested and brought up under a warrant charging them with assaulting and beating William Coles Harding, farmer and dealer, of Sanigar. It appeared from the evidence that the prisoners visited the Bell Inn at Berkeley Heath, and there being some dispute as to a broken cup, Complainant deposed that he was sitting outside the Bell talking to three or four other farmers and dealers, and heard the Landlord, Mr Hooper, ask defendants to pay for a cup they had broken. Wiltshire was very abusive, and complainant told him he had belter pay and get off  Wiltshire took off his coat, and thereupon caught complainant by the hands and butted his head into his face several times, causing severe bruises. Harding then defended himself, He put prisoner on his back on the ground, and then the two females "pitched into" witness. Woodward struck him with her fists, and knew how to use them. As there was a further charge against the prisoners, sentence was deferred. They were then charged, together with William Gasby, with assaulting and beating John Charles Hooper, landlord of the Bell inn, who said, when the fracas with Mr. Harding was finished, Wiltshire came and knocked him down unawares. As soon as he was down the four prisoners pitched into him and dragged him about. Gasby tripped him several times when he went to help Mr. Harding.
They hammered him about for five minutes.  The four prisoners pleaded for leniency. The bench considered Wiltshire the worst to blame, and he was sentenced to 14 days' imprisonment with hard labour for the assault on Harding, and 14 days' further hard labour for the assault on Hooper. Woodward and Jemima Gasby were each fined and William Gasby was fined

 And just look at this, i found this on some internet site a few years ago, it say Joseph and Lydia were staying at Saint Ann's St., tin man, Nottingham St. Mary, well this is right next to where the later generations stayed, just imagine the Wilshers had been coming and going into and out of Nottingham for years, and me born the same place, i wander what its all about, they have all vanished now. but not a worry when people read of the later years out of my Mothers Time well someone in the future will also have a grand ole time reading through things.

 Joseph and Lydia Wilsher had a daughter Mary Ann baptised at Normanton on Trent 15th Sep 1816. Then there is a baptism on freereg for Lydia d/o Joseph and Lydia Wiltshire of Saint Ann's St., tin man, Nottingham St. Mary, 22nd Jan 1837. This Lydia would fit agewise with the widowed Lydia Elliott who is with Richard and Mary on the 1871 census and make her sister to Mary

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From records I have traced Walter Nelson parents to Scotland and then I can't find any thing els.

As for Somerset, to the best of my understanding my grandfather Joseph Henry Wilsher 1929 end up in Somerset becaues of the army... I do not think he had any connnections down here.

My father made connections with travellers by just talking. He fully believed he was  Romany, growing up he would even tell other Children in school that he came from that culture, I can only wonder what they must of thought.

He even told me stories of when Gpysy and travellers would camp in our town, he would just walk over and knock on a caravan door, and have a tea also chat. He said "people thought me strange that I would do this, but in my eyes these were my people."

That's how deeply my father and even my uncles believed the stories of my grandfather.

As for the spelling my family split apart with some having Wiltshire and others Wilsher, there has always been in fighting about the correct name.

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You will be alright, dont worry yourself everything will be fine, dont ever worry about nothing, go and have a cup of tea, your Dad and your Grandad would want you to be happy, i will talk another time maybe tomorrow, look after yourself

michael

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From what I have seen from looking at the other parts of the tree, which I hit a lot of walls...

If even a hand full of them are the same as the William line I would believe the greater family to be a well known traveller family in the midlands from 1800s-1900s, whether they wre pure Romany or married in, or even English travellers I do not  know.

I plan on spending at least 5 years on this project and purchasing 100s of birth,death,marriage for the Wilsher plus extended traveller family's. Even then I still believe there will be more questions then answers.

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From what I have seen from looking at the other parts of the tree, which I hit a lot of walls...

If even a hand full of them are the same as the William line I would believe the greater family to be a well known traveller family in the midlands from 1800s-1900s, whether they were pure Romany or married in, or even English travellers I do not  know.

I plan on spending at least 5 years on this project and purchasing 100s of birth,death,marriage for the Wilsher plus extended traveller family's. Even then I still believe there will be more questions then answers.

I  think in a general way the futher back you can trace a family name the more relatives with that name will be alive now, so if you have two thousand Gipsy families named Boswell it is more than likley that the Boswells are a very old Gipsy family, the Wilshers Wiltshires Wilshaws have no where near the amount of Families as of the Boswells, of course not all the Gipsy Boswells will share the same oridinal ancester that came over to Britain, but in a general way what i say must be true.

So if Edward Wiltshire 1760 was the Father to William who is the oldest of them then this means they start with Edward, all you need to do is find who was Edward born from, you told me you found that record of him in the book of the Gipsy Elliotts, the record says Edward Wiltshire was a Traveller,  but this could mean he was a local man who took to the travelling way of life or he maybe married into a travelling family, there is one more thing Edward may or is Father could of used the Wiltshire name as an alias, dont forget it is how you judge things people in these times are conditioned to think in a way that conforms with the values and teachings of the educated peoples of Britain, the Romany who came to Britain already had the geane pool of many Countrys in them, they was already married in before they came here, i have looked and looked and looked and i can not find not a single 100% family or a single person with thoes Indian geans, not evan 90%, i think the best i have seen and i may be wrong but i think i saw once a 40% in a European Country that denoted to a person, in Britain i think i read that someone had about 20%, but if you trace your Family just down from your Dad to your Dad to his Dad right back to India then in your mind you are a Romany, i think a Romany is a Gipsy, but then a person must ask themselfs what is a Gipsy, well if you dont know you will never know, a lot of the talk that goes on about this subject is to me very strange, people loose their mind, well i better leave it there, try not to use words like pure when refering to the Gipsys, the Gipsies are Gipsies, you have got to have Old Familys, sure how can you have Young Familys if you dont have Old ones, Its so simple but educated people who have started all this talk just do not realise that it was themselfs who were simply talking and writing of thier own ways vallues and ideals, their way of the ancester, its so simple to see yet its done everyone, wow, so i would just say to you more than likely if Edward Wiltshire was the First of his people to travel then they must of married in to a Gipsy family in his time or one of his Childrens time, so who ever was the first Family known as a Gipsy well then the Family line would travel back through that name, i think if you are a Gipsy or come out of the Gipsies and you know this, then that will be forever always who you are, down through a Womans line or a Mans line to me means just the same, you could be from familys that had Cousins or who had more D.n.a and more genes in the total amount than you, over the last ten yeares i have learned quite a lot, but the daftest thing is how daft some people are, they rearly do insult Dead People, the shame of it, i would rather be dead myself than talk the talk of all the stupid talk and bring shame on myself.

I do hope this talk helps you in the research that you are undertaking, i am not like you i only have what the know alls would call a direct line, through the Great Women, in this line it may lead to say a servant Girl who ran away with what the experts would call an half bred, who knows, so i am the King of the Scrag Ends, with the Pride to match a Mountain, no i have evan more Pride than that, its true everyday i wake up and i know no one can tap me on the shoulder, no one can penertrate what i feel, every step i take i know what i know and it is my step, born Proud and never never will i die but only as a Proud man, i will never disrespect the Gipsies no matter how they are quantified by strangers, the so- called lowest of all the Gipsies have more about them than the so-called high and mighty big toffs who would swallow there own tongue when reading these true words, i do hope i have been of help to you, you can be my assistant if you want in my research, i will put lots on i find for you to, i will try my best to find things for you.

michael

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When I use the word pure romany, I am only talking about Edward... Even if he came over from Europe, I know he probably would not had been pure blood, even back then. That said, there would be a differents in him marrying in, being a English traveller of coming over from Europe.  From a pure history point of view.

I would totally agree that living the life style and being in that culture is what makes you, I find the whole subject matter interesting from a culture and history mind set. Coming on here and finding like minded people has been a bonus.