Author Topic: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset  (Read 2436 times)

Offline Bookbox

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #36 on: Friday 10 August 18 09:23 BST (UK) »
Snippet 18

... lady my mother hathe declared hur will of towards the p(er)fourmance of this my laste will

of whiche landis and tenementis I have auc(thori)te and powr to declare my will as well as my said

mother as more playnly apperithe by Indentures therof made beringe date the xxiij day of

June in the xvth yere* of our soverayne lorde kinge Henry the Eight  Allso I will that if the

mariage solemnised and had betwene Anne my doughter and Henry Willowghby Esquier

sonne and heire apparannt of s(ir) Edwarde Wyllowghby knyght be dyssolvid by reason and disag^r^e(-)...

* 15 Henry VIII = 1523

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Offline WillowG

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #37 on: Friday 10 August 18 15:44 BST (UK) »
*In the other clip ‘Cumbria’ is quite clearly written. This one is written “Combr”.

Just incidentally, I would have expected both Cumbr' and Combr' to be contracted forms of Cumberland (not Cumbria).

Cumbreland? Just remembering how it was pronounced/written by characters in "The Last Kingdom" novels and TV series set in 9thC. I'm interested in both these periods of history.

That series looks really exciting. I have always loved both this time period too! :)


Just a couple of suggestions regarding the names of the manors:

ADDED:

In snippet #11, two instances of: Thorneh(a)m

ADDED 2:

In line 5 of snippet #11; written is Dewan Egremond

However, (i) I'm not sure that's a D (it's different to others), and (ii) it's contracted in some manner.

Thurnham in north Lancashire.

Egremont in Cumberland.

These are just suggestions based on my knowledge of geography of North-West England. Btw I'm descended from Lambs who were numerous around Thurnham from this time on. One of my distant ancestors might have been a tenant.

Wonderfully spotted! Isn't that a funny feeling? :) I have done the same thing, come over somewhere accidentally where my ancestors used to live when I was researching something completely different.

Snippet 17 (all I have time for at the moment):

Anything you can do is so great ❤ I appreciate this so very much.

my doughter Marye have all

!!!!!!!!!!

Things just got interesting.

It looks as if her name was indeed 'Marye'. There is definitely no possibility of it being an abbreviation for Margaret, then? Or a clerical error to the same effect? But he does write out his wife's name in full, so I don't understand why he wouldn't do the same thing for his daughter ...

Or a nickname, Marge? To identify her from her mother? Only, he doesn't seem like a nickname-y sort of guy ... At least in writing. In real life he might have been fireworks of fun. (Actually, he probably was, considering that he was one of Henry VIII's closest comrades. Though Burke describes his speech as 'soldierlike, plain, short, smart, and material.', so perhaps my initial assessment of him was correct :) )
http://www.luminarium.org/encyclopedia/thomasgrey2.htm

Only it would fit so well if she had been named Margaret. We know that Anne Boleyn did not take on any maids of honour younger than 16 (Anne Basset was refused a position for this very reason, being only 15. She had better luck under Jane Seymour).

So, the Lady Margaret Grey that first appears as a receiver of a New Year's gift from Henry VIII in 1534 - to the date on 1st of January 1534 - would have to have been born in or before 1517.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol7/pp4-12

There is however also a 'Margaret Lady Grey, servant to queen Katharine' who is granted an annuity of 20l in October 1530.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol4/pp3013-3026

That same Margaret appears in an entry in the Letters & Papers of Henry VIII dated 8th of January 1534 as 'Margaret Lady Grey, late Servant of Katharine of Arragon. See Grants in January, No. 4.'
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol7/pp12-16

Could an unmarried woman be termed thus? I know that later there would be strict rules for that, but in Tudor times it seems not to have been so strict.

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Offline WillowG

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #38 on: Friday 10 August 18 16:52 BST (UK) »
We also have the following entry in the account book for Princess Mary Tudor's household in 1533:

On Monday, 17 March, there came to dinner the marchioness of Dorset, lady Grey, and others ; on Thursday, 10 April, lord Sandes and Sir Will. Fitzwilliam ; on Tuesday, 15 April, the marchioness of Dorset, lady Matravers and her two sisters, with others. At Otforde from Tuesday, 6 May, to Wednesday, 2 July. On Thursday, 15 May, there came to dinner Sir Will. Ascue, Sir And. Billisbe, and Sir Rice Mauncell ; on Thursday, 5 June, lords Montague and Hastings, Sir Geoff. Pale (Pole), Sir Will. Huse, and Sir John Beryn ; on Monday, 9 June, the marquis of Dorset, his mother and sister
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol6/pp613-626

The Greys/Dorsets appear to have been frequent visitors. Accompanying the Marchioness of Dorset there is a lady Grey.

Could Lady Grey or the Lady Grey be some sort of courtesy title given to the eldest daughter of the family?

As in Jane Austen's day and age. In Pride and Prejudice, the eldest daughter of the family, Jane Bennet, is called Miss Bennet while her younger sisters are Miss Elizabeth Bennet, Miss Mary Bennet, Miss Catherine Bennet and Miss Lydia Bennet.

I know that wasn't the case with the aristocracy later, but could that have been a thing in Tudor times?

Because there is also a 'the Lady Grey' who has never been identified (at least not by Kate Emerson whose list I am going by) present with Princess Mary at Richmond in 1520 during the Field of Cloth of Gold.
http://www.tudorwomen.com/?page_id=745

Would it not make sense to have a little companion for her? And who better than one of her closest family members in the country, her cousin, the eldest daughter of her father's great friend and first cousin Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquis of Dorset?

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #39 on: Friday 10 August 18 17:04 BST (UK) »
my doughter Marye have all

!!!!!!!!!!

Things just got interesting.

It looks as if her name was indeed 'Marye'. There is definitely no possibility of it being an abbreviation for Margaret, then? Or a clerical error to the same effect? But he does write out his wife's name in full, so I don't understand why he wouldn't do the same thing for his daughter ...

Or a nickname, Marge? To identify her from her mother?

I have rechecked and the letter is clearly a y.  Compare, for example the word tyme two lines above.

Just a suggestion from my point of view, Willow, but it might be best to read the whole will before becoming too invested in interpreting any finds.

Just letting others know that I am doing Snippet #19 before I head off to bed.

Offline WillowG

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #40 on: Friday 10 August 18 17:07 BST (UK) »
Lady Margaret Grey is mentioned as a receiver again of a New Year's gift from Henry VIII on the 1st of January 1538.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol13/no2/pp496-539

And again in 1540:

New Year's Gifts 1st January 1540
Servants of the Lady Mary [Mary I Tudor], 53s. 4d.; of Lady Elizabeth [Elizabeth I Tudor], 20s.; of the duchess of Suffolk [Katherine Willoughby], old lady of Norfolk, duchess of Richmond [Mary Howard, Duchess of Richmond, the widow of the King's illegitimate son], lady of Westmoreland, and lady of Rutland, 20s. each; of lady Powes, 13s. 4d.; of the lady Marquis Dorset [Margaret Wotton, Marchioness of Dorset, 20s., lady Huntingdon, 20s., Mounteagle, 13s. 4d., Audeley, the Lord Chancellor's wife [our Elizabeth Grey, Lady Audley], 40s., the lady of Kent [Margaret Finch, Countess of Kent, married name Grey at the time], 10s., the lady of Rochford [Jane Parker Boleyn], 13s. 4d., lady Browne, 10s., Bryan, 10s., the young lady Marquis Dorset [Frances Brandon, later Duchess of Suffolk, Henry VIII's niece and Jane Grey's mother], 20s., lady Guildford, 13s. 4d., lady of Derby, 20s., of ladies Calthrop, Baynton (10s.), Hertford, Kinston, Hampton, Russell, Lister, Russell of Worcestershire, Souche, young lady Knevett, St. John (10s.), Hennage, Shelton, Dudley, Page, Sussex, Kildare, Margaret Grey, Herbert of Troy, Bridgewater (20s.), Margaret Douglas, Egecum, Carewe and Taylbushe, 13s. 4d. each; of Mrs. Hill, Mrs. Bowcher, Mrs. Deny, Mrs. Chamborne, Mrs. Jenyns, Mrs. Dorothy Bray, Mrs. Meawtis, and the lord Prince's nurse (that brought “a dossen hankerchers garnished with gold”), 10s. each.
https://www.british-history.ac.uk/letters-papers-hen8/vol16/pp178-210

Here we also see that the idea that she could be Margaret Wotton, Marchioness of Dorset (whose married name of course would have been Grey) falls away, as they are all mentioned in the same document as separate people. '[T]he lady Marquis Dorset', i.e. Margaret Wotton, Marchioness of Dorset, 'the young lady Marquis Dorset', Frances Brandon, later Duchess of Suffolk, Henry VIII's niece and Jane Grey's mother, and of course, our mysterious 'ladies [...] Margaret Grey'.

As an added bonus we also see the 'lady of Kent' mentioned in the list together with the other ladies, neatly eliminating her as a candidate also. She had the title lady, was christened Margaret, and had the married name of Grey from about 1520.

From Kate Emerson's wonderful Who's Who of Tudor Women:

MARGARET FINCH (d.1540/1)
Margaret Finch was the daughter of James Finch or Fynche of London. She was married three times. Her first husband was John Dawes (d.1514), a grocer and London alderman living in Farringdon Without. Her second husband was Oliver Curteis or Curteys. On January 23, 1520/1, she married Richard Grey, 3rd earl of Kent (1481-1524), whose first wife had died on November 19,1516. Margaret had a dowry of 2000 marks, which Kent planned to use to redeem manors he’d sold off in previous years. In partial preparation for her new status as a countess, Margaret purchased twelve ells of Holland cloth, half an ell of popinjay sarcenet, and a frontlet of gold. The cost for all these together was £48 2s. 2d. She appears to have had no children by any of her husbands.
http://www.tudorwomen.com/?page_id=675

I had her in the running as the mysterious Lady Margaret Grey for awhile, but now she can be safely eliminated.

I have often seen it stated that Margaret Wotton, Marchioness of Dorset, died in 1535, but as we can see, she was still alive in 1540.

In fact, she was still alive in January 1541. On the 1st of January, to be presise:

New Year's Gifts 1st January 1541
(I think? - “Rewards given on Saturday, New Year's Day, at Hampton Court, anno xxxijo”)
'of the lady Mary and lady Anne Cleves, 53s. 4d. each; of the duchess of Suffolk, the old lady of Norfolk, the duchess of Richmond, the lady Westmoreland, the lady of Rutland, the lady marquis Dorset, the lady of Huntingdon, and lady Audeley, 20s. each; of ladies Rochford, Bryan (10s.), Guildford, Caltrope, Denys (10s.), Baynton (10s.), of Hertford, Kingston, Russell, of Hampton, Hawarde (10s.), Lyster, Russell of Worcestershire, Zouche, Shelton, the young lady marquis Dorset (20s.), Knevitt, St. John, Hennage, Dudley, Page, of Sussex, of Kildare, Herbert of Troy, of Bridgewater (20s.), Margret Dugles (20s.), Edgecombe, Carowe, Tailbushe, Crumwell, Wriothesley, and Bray, 13s. 4d. each; Mrs. Hill, servant, reward, “Mrs. Bourches, servant,” Mrs. Denys', Mrs. Chambours', Mrs. Jenyns', Mrs. Mewtes', the lord Prince's nurse (that brought “a dozen hankerchers garnished with gold”), Mrs. Penn, Mrs. Turwhit, and Mrs. Herbert, 10s. each;'
Henry VIII: Miscellaneous 1541 Pages 696-730

Lady Margaret Grey however is ominously and conspicuously missing.

If anyone has a complete list with links to all of the New Year's gifts lists, I would be deeply grateful. I have not been able to find one for the time after 1541.

Offline WillowG

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #41 on: Friday 10 August 18 17:24 BST (UK) »
Snippet 18

... lady my mother hathe declared hur will of towards the p(er)fourmance of this my laste will

of whiche landis and tenementis I have auc(thori)te and powr to declare my will as well as my said

mother as more playnly apperithe by Indentures therof made beringe date the xxiij day of

June in the xvth yere* of our soverayne lorde kinge Henry the Eight  Allso I will that if the

mariage solemnised and had betwene Anne my doughter and Henry Willowghby Esquier

sonne and heire apparannt of s(ir) Edwarde Wyllowghby knyght be dyssolvid by reason and disag^r^e(-)...

* 15 Henry VIII = 1523

Blessed be! He is naming all of them :)

Thank goodness! It would have been so annoying of him to write long will and omit any mention of his daughters names :)

I think his mentions of his mother is regarding an old family quarrel. Although the quarrel between him and his mother about money never got quite as vicious the quarrel between his son and his mother, it got quite vicious enough.

His mother's will is quoted in the book I mentioned earlier, Testamenta Vetusta. I read it hoping for any clues, thinking that she might have mentioned her grandsons or granddaughters, but she does not make one - 1 - mention of either her eldest son or his wife or any of his children. Brr.

His mention of her is rather cold too.

my doughter Marye have all

!!!!!!!!!!

Things just got interesting.

It looks as if her name was indeed 'Marye'. There is definitely no possibility of it being an abbreviation for Margaret, then? Or a clerical error to the same effect? But he does write out his wife's name in full, so I don't understand why he wouldn't do the same thing for his daughter ...

Or a nickname, Marge? To identify her from her mother?

I have rechecked and the letter is clearly a y.  Compare, for example the word tyme two lines above.

Just a suggestion from my point of view, Willow, but it might be best to read the whole will before becoming too invested in interpreting any finds.

Just letting others know that I am doing Snippet #19 before I head off to bed.

Oh, that is too bad :( She could be a Grey cousin, I suppose. Mysterious.

Yes, you are undoubtedly right :) It is also just a way to organise my thoughts and have all of my research so that I have it for later.

Thank you so much for all of your hard work, all of you!  :) :) :) I really, really appreciate it.

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #42 on: Friday 10 August 18 17:25 BST (UK) »
Snippet #19:

...ment of either of them at their laufull age of consent or by reason of dethe of the same Henry

Willowghby and before carnall knowledge had betwene them that then the said Anne shalhave

towardes hir mariage one thousand poundes sterling as hir other susters shalhave Allso I

will that my wif have all my houshold stuff plate and Juelles duringe hur lyf except

suche porcion therof as she at hur pleasure shall gyve to my sonne Henry And after hur

decease to my ^leve to^ sonne Henry ij partes therof as it shalbe valluyd or worthe at the tyme of hur

decease Allso I will that myne executours shalhave all my goodes and Cattall leases for

yeres not bequethid in this my will towardes the p(er)fourmance of this my will allso I will...


 

Notes:

I believe the confused section in line six should be this:

...decease to ^leve to^ my sonne Henry ij partes...

That is, the writer has put the insertion arrow in the wrong place.

valluyd = valued

Offline horselydown86

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #43 on: Saturday 11 August 18 04:24 BST (UK) »
Snippet #20:

...that Marye Tomason have yerely duringe hur lyff fyve markes st(er)ling out of all my man(our)s

londis and tenementis in the countie of leic(estre) And allso a hundrithe markes st(erling) to hir mariage

Allso I will that my buildinge at Bradgate be fynyshid and made by myn executours

accordinge to a platt therof made And the Chapell at Asteley to be buyldid And my tombe to

be made there by thadvise of my said executours  And the said Chapel buyldinge and

Tombe to be made in as Convenient tyme as it may resonablye I will that phillip the

Eremyte have xijd by weke as longe as he contynuethe at Asteley to pray for my faither

and my mother soules my wifes soule and all christen soules allso I will I will that all...

Offline WillowG

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Re: Will of Thomas Grey, 2nd Marquess of Dorset
« Reply #44 on: Saturday 11 August 18 12:09 BST (UK) »
Notes:

I believe the confused section in line six should be this:

...decease to ^leve to^ my sonne Henry ij partes...

That is, the writer has put the insertion arrow in the wrong place.

valluyd = valued

Yes, I have read it over, and I entirely agree.

Thank you so much, I really appreciate this!!! :) :D :)

Alright, just to see if we are all interpretation-wise on the same page together:

Quote
for lacke and defaulte of Issue male of my bodye laufully begotton I will that my doughter Marye have all and singulier my said [Manours?] londis and ten(emen)tis in the said counties of Combr and Lancastre to hur and to the heires of hur body lawfully begotton only

This, the mentioning of Mary first, and inserting her as heir if something happens to all of his sons, indicates that she is the oldest daughter, doesn't it?

Putting some parts together for clarity:

Quote
Allso I will that if the mariage solemnised and had betwene Anne my doughter and Henry Willowghby Esquier sonne and heire apparannt of s(ir) Edwarde Wyllowghby knyght be dyssolvid by reason and disag^r^e(-)ment of either of them at their laufull age of consent or by reason of dethe of the same Henry Willowghby and before carnall knowledge had betwene them that then the said Anne shalhave towardes hir mariage one thousand poundes sterling as hir other susters shalhave

This means that a marriage ceremony has taken place, right? Or something to that effect. Probably the aforementioned 'married by agreement dated 20 Sept. 1528'.

But the marriage has not yet been consummated. They were probably not cohabitating.

be dyssolvid by reason and disag^r^e(-)ment of either of them at their laufull age of consent

I take this to mean that none of them, not Henry Willoughby, nor the testator's daughter Anne, had reached the lawful age of consent in 1530 when her father wrote his will.

Child marriages could take place, but then both parties had right to refuse when they reached the age of 12, which was the canonical age of consent, making the marriage invalid. Margaret Beaufort, Henry VII's mother, did this with her first marriage.

In a way this is very nice of the testator, he is giving her a way out.

And then he suddenly stops naming daughters. Could this 'Marye Tomason' be an illegitimate daughter?