Author Topic: George Gray born 1848 Sunderland - Help me break down a brick wall please  (Read 3493 times)

Offline rosie67

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 24
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Good Afternoon Everyone

I hope someone can help me.

 My Great Grandfather George Gray was born in Sunderland in 1852. When he married my Gt Grandmother Julia Bennett he was a widow with a son Frederick William Gray born Sunderland 1875.
They married in St Pauls Southwark  in 1888. Then went on to live at 33 2nd Avenue Queens Park, Paddington for the rest of their married life.

 My Father told me no one spoke of his Grandfather George Gray and there are strangely no photos - there are many of his wife and children but none of him He was a Plumber-Journeyman. He died young at the age of 45 in 1897 Paddinton

I have not really been able to trace back his forbears and his marriage certificate unfortunately has a big line though where the Fathers name would be. Which makes it much more difficult.

A strange thing happened yesterday. I found a marriage certificate for his sons marriage, the son Walter George Blethyn Gray had on his marriage certificate his deceased Fathers name of John George Gray, now on no other documents has he been named as John George Gray. His wife Walters Mother Julia Gray had signed the marriage certificate so I wouldn't have expected an incorrect name for George to be on there.

Since I have added the marriage certificate for Walter Gray I am getting hints for John George Gray on George Grays timeline, who married Jane Hunter in Bishopwearmouth in Sunderland. Plus of course parents for John George Gray.
Also there is a baptism certificate for Frederick William Gray, parents Jane Gray & John George Gray. John George Gray was apparently born 1848 = 4 years before my George Gray. I am at a loss to explain this especially as George Grays marriage certificate definitely has a line through Fathers name. Could this be a mistake ? As I don't have his first wife's name this could be a mistake or could be fact. John George Gray & Jane Hunter married October 1871

Strangely enough we have a lot of photos of my Father visiting relatives in Sunderland in the late 1920's early 1930's which would have been a long journey from Harrow in Middx, my Father remembers going there with his mother and Grandmother indicating there was no family feud or issues as there are a lot of photos of cousins etc (with no names on of course !)
So any help or advice would be very much appreciated, I have been trying to locate the relatives of my Gt Grandfather for so many years now and this may be an opportunity to now do so
Thanks in advance
Rosemary

Offline rosie99

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 41,948
  • ALFIE 2009 - 2021 (Rosbercon Sky's the Limit)
    • View Profile
Re: George Gray born 1848 Sunderland - Help me break down a brick wall please
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 05 August 18 16:37 BST (UK) »
GRAY, FREDERICK  WILLIAM     mmn HUNTER     
1875  June Quarter in SUNDERLAND  Volume 10A  Page 780

Marriages Dec qtr 1871 
Gray    John George       
Hunter    Jane       
Sunderland    10a   824
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline rosie99

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 41,948
  • ALFIE 2009 - 2021 (Rosbercon Sky's the Limit)
    • View Profile
Re: George Gray born 1848 Sunderland - Help me break down a brick wall please
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 05 August 18 16:42 BST (UK) »
1881
RG11/4993 f66 p58
All born Sunderland
John G Gray 33   occ Plumber & Gas Fitter   
Jane   35      
Fred W 5      

ADDED
The marriage to Jane Hunter names his father as William Gray
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:NXGL-8FJ
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Online Girl Guide

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: George Gray born 1848 Sunderland - Help me break down a brick wall please
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 05 August 18 17:30 BST (UK) »
This looks like John's birth registration

GRAY, JOHN  GEORGE     TINMOUTH     
GRO Reference: 1848  M Quarter in SUNDERLAND UNION  Volume 24  Page 271

I am assuming this is John with his parents and siblings in the 1851 census living at 28, Silksworth Row, Sunderland, Durham.

Registration district   Sunderland
Piece number   2395
Folio   306
Page   8
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire


Online Girl Guide

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: George Gray born 1848 Sunderland - Help me break down a brick wall please
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 05 August 18 17:50 BST (UK) »
May I ask how you arrived at George Gray born c1852?

At what point in your research did you find George and what documents do you have that lead from yourself to George?

The only Paddington death for a George Gray is this one:-

Deaths Jun 1897 
Gray    George    59    Paddington    1a   38   Gives a birth year of 1838, therefore too old

There is this one:-

Deaths Mar 1897   
Gray    George    44    Chelsea    1a   234   

Gives a birth year of 1853 which is closer to George's suggested birth year.

I take it you don't have a death certificate for George?
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire

Offline rosie67

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 24
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: George Gray born 1848 Sunderland - Help me break down a brick wall please
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 05 August 18 17:51 BST (UK) »
Thanks for your replies. Do I make the assumption then that this "John George" Gray is actually George gray with a different birth date ? It is so strange no Father mentioned on the Marriage certificate for him. Al his other childrens marriages certificate has George Gray, no John at all.??


Online Girl Guide

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 6,428
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: George Gray born 1848 Sunderland - Help me break down a brick wall please
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 05 August 18 17:56 BST (UK) »
What concerns me is the four year gap between George and John George.

Are you able to answer any of the questions I asked in my previous reply #4?  I am particularly interested in how you arrived at George from yourself.  What is the document trail for that link?
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire

Offline rosie67

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 24
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: George Gray born 1848 Sunderland - Help me break down a brick wall please
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 05 August 18 18:09 BST (UK) »
Hello Girl Guide

His youngest daughter my Godmother was only a few months old when he died and I remember her talking about him but  I am going back over 30 years ago now. She spoke of how young she was when he died and she never knew him.

I have his marriage certificate George Gray Widow Plumber . 60 Lorrimore Road. Fathers name & profession is - and rank or profession blank. Age 35 years 20/1/1888 . St Pauls St Mary Newington, Surrey. (Southwark)

I have my Grandmothers his daughters birth certificate. Rose Isabel Gray.  born 6/1/1893. Father George Gray A plumber - Journeyman. 33 Second Avenue Queens Park.

His death certificate I do have . Died 16/3/1897 Aged 44 years. A Plumber Journeyman  33 Second Ave Queens Park.

It just seems strange that on one of his childrens marriage certifcates he has a different name and his wife signed as a witness so I am assuming she would have seen it. There were 5 children & Frederick the one from his first marriage.

None of the certificates have John before the George. Just want to be super careful that I am not making assumptions

Offline rosie67

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 24
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: George Gray born 1848 Sunderland - Help me break down a brick wall please
« Reply #8 on: Sunday 05 August 18 18:11 BST (UK) »
Yes girl guide

I was answering when you asked me this question of the 4 years which is nagging at me as well. My Father had his Mothers birth certificate and of course the information was on their and his parents birth certificate same information George Gray Plumber Journeyman

I cannot understand how such a mistake would be made on a marriage certificate. without someone noticing it