Author Topic: Non Conformist Baptism  (Read 912 times)

Offline Jan_down_south

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Non Conformist Baptism
« on: Friday 10 August 18 13:54 BST (UK) »
Good afternoon all

I have just discovered my ancestor could not have been baptised in his local church/chapel as there wasn't one until approx. 10 years after he was born.  However, non-conformists were able to worship at "Old Dolphin" at Clayton from 1807 but I don't know if baptisms were allowed.

Therefore does anyone know if the records from circa 1820 to 1824 are available online for Birstall and Shelf please?

I am looking for Jarvis Jagger (sometimes noted as Gerves/Garves and Jaggar/Jaggars/Jaggers) born circa 1822.  The family lived at Clayton but as there was nowhere to worship, apart from "Old Dolphin", and people would travel as far away as Birstall and Shelf.

TIA
Jan   
Halifax -  Pratt, Lord, Blagbrough (Blakebrough), Naylor, Atkinson, Southwood, Cockroft, Hoyle, Dry, Denton, Barker and McDermott
Bradford/Clayton - Jagger
Bradford - Denton
Southowram - Pratt, Jagger
Hartshead/Clifton - Pratt
Sowerby - Siddall
Pershore Worcs - Clarke, Checketts
Lord, Ontario, Canada

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Offline Viktoria

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Re: Non Conformist Baptism
« Reply #1 on: Friday 10 August 18 23:18 BST (UK) »
Perhaps this is not relevant but Baptists believed that a person had to be fully aware what Baptism meant and so they did not Baptise infants,but waited until people could think for themselves albeit they would be at Chapel several times on Sundays,
The Baptisms would be total immersions,the tank sunk into the Chapel floor with steps leading into the water,the person to be Baptised would descend the steps and be lowered right under by the minister,they would walk to the other side(symbolic),and ascend some more steps out of the tank.
I attended a Baptist Chapel as a child when evacuated to my father’s relatives.
Prior to the Chapel being built in the mid 1800’s people worshipped in the blacksmith’s forge on the  lead mine site which was the principal employer after farming.Cornish miners moved to Shropshire when tin mining hit a long depression,lead mining was a very similar process so the Cornishmen were
already skilled .They took their way of worshipping with them.
Hope you find what you are searching for.
                       Viktoria.

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Online arthurk

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Re: Non Conformist Baptism
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 11 August 18 14:27 BST (UK) »
I'm not clear from your question whether you're sure your ancestors were non-conformist, or whether you're assuming it because there wasn't a very local C of E place of worship at that time.

If you're sure they were non-conformist, do you have anything else giving clues about which chapels or denominations they may have belonged to?

Pre-1837 non-conformist registers are mostly held by the National Archives, and images are available at various places online. I've found births of children to a Job and Mary Jagger and to an Abraham and Hannah Jagger, both at Clayton Baptist Chapel in the time frame you mention.

The Old Dolphin chapel was Wesleyan, and they would have practised infant baptism. Another place to consider would be the Kipping Chapel in Thornton (Independent/Congregational) - I'm pretty sure their registers are online somewhere, but transcripts are also available from Bradford FHS.

There are other Yorkshire non-conformist registers at Ancestry - mostly post-1837, but I think there are also some that weren't deposited in 1837.

On the other hand, if they were C of E then they might have attended the Old Bell Chapel in Thornton. But all these places were within the ancient parish of Bradford, and the main parish church (St Peter) registers contain baptisms from all parts of the parish, including Clayton. Baptisms at the Old Bell are often recorded both there and in the parish church registers.

Just in case Jarvis's baptism was missed, could you tell us his parents' names, please? That might help us look for siblings and provide useful clues.
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline trish1120

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Re: Non Conformist Baptism
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 11 August 18 15:20 BST (UK) »
Was his Father Benjamin from his 1841 Marriage to Mary Bland?
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Cummins, Miskelly(IRELAND + NZ) ,Leggett (SFK + NFK ENGLAND + NZ),Purdy ( NBL ENGLAND + NZ ), Shaw YKS, LANCs + NZ), Holdsworth(LINCS +LANCS + NZ), Moloney, Dean, Fitzpatrick, ( County Down,IRE) Newby(NBL.ENG, Costello(IRE), Ivers, Murray(IRE),Reay(NBL.ENG) Reid (BERW.SCOTLAND)

Offline Fordyce

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Re: Non Conformist Baptism
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 12 August 18 10:40 BST (UK) »
And if so, was this Benjamin Jagger the Benjamin Jagger who married Mary Wilkinson?

They had a daughter Martha Jagger who married John Bottomley, weaver of Northowram, 31 May 1835 Halifax St John. Censuses show John Bottomley was born abt 1812 in Northowram. Unfortunately, John Bottomley's father isn't ever recorded anywhere, alhough he seems to be related to a Jonas Bottomley who lived with his large family in Jackson Hill, Northowram. I've been trying to discover this John Bottomley's parentage because his daughter Grace Bottomley married John Tordoff, one of the Tordoff farming family at Cock Royds, N Bierley, and my own Bottomleys were numerous very near by at Soper Lane Bottom. (I've also been trying to prove Jonas Bottomley's parentage.)

Offline BushInn1746

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Re: Non Conformist Baptism
« Reply #5 on: Monday 13 August 18 00:15 BST (UK) »
Hello Jan

1846
WHEREAS a Petition of Jarvis Jagger, of Clayton Heights, near Bradford, in the county of York, Stuff Manufacturer, an insolvent debtor, having been filed in the Leeds District Court of Bankruptcy, and the interim order for protection from process having been given to the said Jarvis Jagger ...

Leeds Intelligencer, 17th April 1852
On Tuesday last, a game was played on Wibsey Slack, between Jarvis Jagger, of Bradford, and Isaac Drake, of Queen's Head, for £2 aside. The former was the victor by nearly 30 Scores.


Numerous Jagger of Clayton Heights in newspapers.


ADDED: According to letters of John Taylor the Old Dolphin Wesleyan Chapel was there in 1806.
In his letters John comments on the increasing competition for congregation, given the opening of the Ambler Thorn Kilhamite (Methodist New Connexion) Chapel and the Old Dolphin Wesleyan Chapel in 1806.


Clayton
https://e-voice.org.uk/claytonhistorygroup/then-and-now-margaret-dalgety/
Mr. & Mrs. Hirst were the main contributors to the building of the Old Dolphin Wesleyan Chapel at Clayton Heights, and there is also in Clayton Parish Church a stained glass window dedicated to their memory.


https://e-voice.org.uk/claytonhistorygroup/historical-dates/
1828 (August) Clayton Baptist's recognised as a separate church by Queenshead Baptist's.
1830 First Baptist Chapel built. Opened 22nd October. George Andrews pastor.
1834 (3rd October) Wesleyan Chapel, Clayton Lane, opened.


"George HOOD of Selby" Before 1812?

Born about 1785 (Yorkshire per 1841 Census)

Married Sarah RUSSELL at Selby 1815 newspaper - "both of that place".

Buried in the Quaker Burial Ground at Selby as "Not in Membership" in 1845, aged 60 years.

George HOOD of Selby was refused Membership of the Quakers in 1836.

Elected Overseer of the Poor of Selby in 1838.

Had both known (Selby) and unknown (some not stated 1846) property interests.

Possible (but unknown) links to COOK and/or PEARSON names.

Offline Jan_down_south

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Re: Non Conformist Baptism
« Reply #6 on: Monday 13 August 18 21:00 BST (UK) »
Good evening everyone and thank you to one and all for your input!

Viktoria - thank you so much for the background information

Arthurk - Jarvis's father, as noted on his marriage cert to Mary Bland, was Benjamin, a weaver of Clayton Heights.  I have a baptism for him in 1785 at Kipping.  I have a marriage for Benjamin in 1805 at Bradford to Betty Wood.

Trish - yes, see above

Fordyce - no, not the same Benjamin, see above

Bushinn1746 - thank you for the link to Clayton by Mr and Mrs Hirst.  I came across this the other day and this is what has re=awakened my interest in Jarvis's baptism.  Thank you so much for the newspaper clippings, are they available online?  I wonder what sort of game was being played in 1852?

Many thanks
Jan

Halifax -  Pratt, Lord, Blagbrough (Blakebrough), Naylor, Atkinson, Southwood, Cockroft, Hoyle, Dry, Denton, Barker and McDermott
Bradford/Clayton - Jagger
Bradford - Denton
Southowram - Pratt, Jagger
Hartshead/Clifton - Pratt
Sowerby - Siddall
Pershore Worcs - Clarke, Checketts
Lord, Ontario, Canada

Online arthurk

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Re: Non Conformist Baptism
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 14 August 18 15:56 BST (UK) »
I'm not sure how much of this will be new to you, but I've found the following children for Benjamin and Betty, all baptised at Dolphin Chapel - images at Ancestry:

Mercy 28 Oct 1808; Henry 4 Mar 1810; Henry 1 Oct 1811; Hannah 2 Apr 1815.

That run of images ends in 1821-ish, and I don't know whether the later ones are there too. Jarvis didn't show up in the indexes, but if he'd been mistranscribed he might still be lurking somewhere.

There's also a Jonas son of Benjamin (mother not named) bapt at Bradford St Peter in 1806 (image also at Ancestry).

Do you know when Betty died, and if Benjamin might have remarried? The reason for asking is that Queenshead (=Queensbury) Baptist Chapel has records of the births of 3 children of Benjamin and Grace Jagger of Northowram:

William 1818; James 1821; Elizabeth 1823. In all cases Benjamin was described as a weaver (same as at Dolphin) and Grace as daughter of William Lister.

I know that's not Clayton, but it's not that far away, and a second marriage might account for a change of address. And I know it's James, not Jarvis - but could that be a transcription error? These entries were made in 1837 by the chapel's Register (Registrar), so may not have been read through by the parents or whoever gave the information.
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline Fordyce

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Re: Non Conformist Baptism
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 14 August 18 17:21 BST (UK) »
Benjamin Jagger h/o Betty Wood and Benjamin Jagger h/o Grace Lister are definitely two different people. I've now found both in the 1841 census. The former married 7-10-1805 Bradford and they are in Thornton in 1841; the latter married 3-7-1811 Halifax and he is at Jackson Hill, Northowram in 1841 (age recorded as 50) widowed - he was the one I was interested in. I had thought he was the Benjamin Jagger who married Mary Wilkinson on 24-3-1803 Halifax (he was also a weaver and was also in Northowram), but whether he was or wasn't doesn't matter because my interest was in the connections at Jackson Hill between the children of the Benjamin Jagger there then and the Bottomleys literally surrounding his household in 1841.

I thought untangling Bottomleys was bad enough. The Jaggers are just as bad!