Author Topic: Catholic Protestant Marriages in Victorian England  (Read 2859 times)

Offline Ratty2

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Catholic Protestant Marriages in Victorian England
« on: Monday 13 August 18 12:11 BST (UK) »
I have a couple who married 1877 London. He was Scottish Presbyterian from Fife, she was Irish Catholic from Devon; they married at her church Our Lady of the Assumption, Deptford, Greenwich.
I am expecting that such a marriage, fifty years after Catholic Emancipation, was not unusual but may still have been under social suspicion, even frowned upon, by their respective parents his more so than hers.
May it have been so strongly expressed that the groom amended, but did not radically change his names?
On the MC he introduced a middle name he had not had in any previous 'official' record (eg birth or Census) and he altered the spelling of his surname.
I cannot find any on-line article about this social situation, so maybe it was no big deal, but your views would be most gratefully appreciated.
Schleswig-Holstein:- Rathgen; Rathjen; Oelkers; Behnke; Scheel; Rothgarn; Normanns; Scotland:- Lindsay

Offline Rena

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Re: Catholic Protestant Marriages in Victorian England
« Reply #1 on: Monday 13 August 18 14:45 BST (UK) »
I am no expert but I would have thought that the inclusion of another given name and the change to the surname could have been the decision of the person themselves. 

1) A marriage ceremony is one instance where the parties can legally change their surnames without extra costs, This was the case when my son-in-law married my daughter and changed his surname to our family surname simply because he didn't like his own surname.  You also find change of surname occurs when a man marries into a family where the bride is an heiress to a farm for instance and the terms for the inheritors of the farm should always be known by that surname.

2)  I have an EV. Lutheran g. grandfather baptised on the European mainland in 1854.  He was named in favour of his grandfather Heinrich who was present at the baptism.  When I approached the Ev. Lutheran church archives for details of Heinrich the grandfather I was given the names of his wife and their several children; the children had all been baptised in the local village Lutheran church. This wife was not the grandmother of my ancestor.   Additionally I was informed that the wife and children were Catholics, and I was referred to the Catholic archives for more details.  From the Catholic archivist I learnt that all the children had been given a Catholic baptism on the same day in Hildesheim (the oldest being 10 yrs of age) and when comparing the Ev. Lutheran record of the family's names with that of the Catholic record of names, the lists were identical.   The Catholic archivist informed me that where there was no Catholic church in the near vicinity where the father worked, then the family were allowed to attend the local parish Lutheran church.

3) I do have an anecdote from the 1960s when my late husband was seconded to the NATO forces in the Netherlands. Single men lived on the campus but married personnel were dotted around living in apartment blocks in the near vicinity.  One early evening a co-worker of my OH walked into our flat rather disconsolately and asked for a favour.  He explained his wife was a Catholic and when they'd married they'd promised to rear any children as Catholics.  He explained this wasn't a problem but what he took umbrage at was that when the Priest made his weekly afternoon visit, his wife offered him a glass of whisky and this particular day the co-worker had arrived home tired and sweaty needing a shower and then relax with a glass of whisky, only to find the priest had emptied the bottle - so could my OH offer him a drink?   ;D  ;D
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy: MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell: Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar; Ross: Urray:Mackenzie:  Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell: Perthshire: Brown Ferguson: Wales: McCarthy, Thomas: England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Well(es). Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells;Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline KGarrad

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Re: Catholic Protestant Marriages in Victorian England
« Reply #2 on: Monday 13 August 18 19:57 BST (UK) »
First off - Spelling is an Art, not a Science ;D
The spellings on certificates rather depends on who was doing the writing - and they often wrote what they thought they heard.

Secondly, it is perfectly legal, in England & Wales at least, to call yourself anything you like ;D
Just as long as there is no intention to defraud or deceive.
Garrad (Suffolk, Essex, Somerset), Crocker (Somerset), Vanstone (Devon, Jersey), Sims (Wiltshire), Bridger (Kent)

Offline Ratty2

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Re: Catholic Protestant Marriages in Victorian England
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 14 August 18 02:51 BST (UK) »
Thanks for those comments, the rules must be different here in Australia - we dare not change any detail from our birth certificates!
But the real issue for me is the social attitudes towards such marriages. Today we take little notice of it, but back then..?
Schleswig-Holstein:- Rathgen; Rathjen; Oelkers; Behnke; Scheel; Rothgarn; Normanns; Scotland:- Lindsay


Offline Rena

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Re: Catholic Protestant Marriages in Victorian England
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 14 August 18 03:48 BST (UK) »
I see what you mean.  Catholicism was banned in Britain until 1829, thus Catholics had to hide their religion. Religious services being held secretly in private houses or in specific Taverns.

A few years ago I watched a TV genealogy programme "Who Do You Think You Are", where one Londoner was surprised to discover she was of Irish descent.  Then travelling to Ireland she discovered to her surprise that her 19th century ancestors had been baptised in the Irish Catholic church.  The priest then explained that during hard times members of his congregation had to travel to the British mainland to find work but before they left Ireland couples would have a marriage ceremony in the Irish Protestant church, which provided them with a Protestant document that the couple could show to prove they weren't Catholics..   The reason, apparently, was that decently paid jobs weren't given to Irish Catholics. 

Whatever your religion if you were a father in those days you'd want your daughter to marry a man with a decently paid regular job and you wouldn't want her to marry a man who didn't have a steady job but relied on short term labouring work to keep body and soul together.

When I was researching my Glaswegian Scottish ancestry, it became apparent that the American civil war meant many companies lost much business and eventually made bankrupt, thus work was hard to find, my own g.grandfather lost his business in 1873.  During that period thousands of Irish (Catholics) arrived on the Scottish shores looking for work and I read there was a public outcry.   

I'm surprised your couple met because people usually congregate in the neighbourhood of their churches or their workplace.
Aberdeen: Findlay-Shirras,McCarthy: MidLothian: Mason,Telford,Darling,Cruikshanks,Bennett,Sime, Bell: Lanarks:Crum, Brown, MacKenzie,Cameron, Glen, Millar; Ross: Urray:Mackenzie:  Moray: Findlay; Marshall/Marischell: Perthshire: Brown Ferguson: Wales: McCarthy, Thomas: England: Almond, Askin, Dodson, Well(es). Harrison, Maw, McCarthy, Munford, Pye, Shearing, Smith, Smythe, Speight, Strike, Wallis/Wallace, Ward, Wells;Germany: Flamme,Ehlers, Bielstein, Germer, Mohlm, Reupke

Offline lemur41

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Re: Catholic Protestant Marriages in Victorian England
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 14 August 18 03:52 BST (UK) »
Very difficult then. It still has repercussions in my family. My x 2 Gt GP's married in 1854, x 2 GGM was the Catholic. My GGGF changed his religion, was disinherited by his fairly wealthy  father, he is interred with his wife in the Catholic area of the cemetery apart from his parents & siblings, they had 2 sons, I descend from the one who lapsed,   he had 2 sons, whose RC education etc was overseen by their Catholic grandma, another lapsed ancestor,  Gt.  Uncle's descendants  are still R C.
We accept the differences, but know verbally of the difficulties my side of the family had until the 1920's

Offline aghadowey

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Re: Catholic Protestant Marriages in Victorian England
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 14 August 18 08:56 BST (UK) »
I have a couple who married 1877 London. He was Scottish Presbyterian from Fife, she was Irish Catholic from Devon; they married at her church Our Lady of the Assumption, Deptford, Greenwich.
I am expecting that such a marriage, fifty years after Catholic Emancipation, was not unusual but may still have been under social suspicion, even frowned upon, by their respective parents his more so than hers.
May it have been so strongly expressed that the groom amended, but did not radically change his names?
On the MC he introduced a middle name he had not had in any previous 'official' record (eg birth or Census) and he altered the spelling of his surname.
I cannot find any on-line article about this social situation, so maybe it was no big deal, but your views would be most gratefully appreciated.

Was he living in England when they got married and afterwards? If so, it may be that the sheer distance from his family lessened any tension with them as apposed to the couple living near his family.
A bit earlier than this my great-grandmother's Irish, Reformed Presbyterian uncle married a Catholic in America. After a number of years his brother, a former minister, went to live with them. Not sure how they all got on but Uncle Alexander was very difficult when he was kept sober according to Irish nephews.
Away sorting out DNA matches... I may be gone for some time many years!

Offline sallyyorks

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Re: Catholic Protestant Marriages in Victorian England
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 14 August 18 10:10 BST (UK) »
I see what you mean.  Catholicism was banned in Britain until 1829, thus Catholics had to hide their religion. Religious services being held secretly in private houses or in specific Taverns.


Catholicism wasn't 'banned' as such. There are reports of of some English towns and villages being openly Catholic long before 1829

There was some restriction under the law on Catholics holding a certain office, but this applied to nonconformists as well

I have English Catholic ancestors and they are noted as 'RC' in CofE registers in the mid and late 1700s
Catholics also joined the British army and 'RC' is noted in military records, during the French and Napoleonic wars, in the religion column . In the Old Bailey Online records. Catholic priests were called to see the criminally condemned (robbery etc) in their final hours ,and this is even in the early records

To answer the OP.
I don't think people were as religious as we tend to think they were. There was many mixed marriages in my opinion, but we just don't notice it. People also could change their religion, but I think it was often just on a whim or for convenience, rather than for any strong religious beliefs.

Offline Ratty2

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Re: Catholic Protestant Marriages in Victorian England
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 14 August 18 11:08 BST (UK) »
Thank you all for your contributions here.
I have tried to find a paper or article on the subject on the inter-marriage issue on-line without success. There is one covering the Regency period (pre-1829) but not much afterwards. E.g. Catholic/Protestant Weddings During the Regency Era - Geri Walton;
https://www.geriwalton.com/catholic-protestant-weddings-regency-era/
Yes these two met, married and lived in London; three children all born and baptized there and Catholic. I suspect there was little the Scottish father could do. What I do notice is that her father was a clothier from Devon as the groom was also but from his home Fife - there must have been a happy trade meeting with a blessed outcome.
So thank you again.
Schleswig-Holstein:- Rathgen; Rathjen; Oelkers; Behnke; Scheel; Rothgarn; Normanns; Scotland:- Lindsay