Charles McDougal born c1813 - German born but British Subject

[rowan35]

Hi there,

I'm trying to track down the origins of my ancestor Charles McDougal who has a rather confusing history. I was hoping someone might be able to help me  This is what I've found so far...

He was born about 1813 according to the 1851 and 1871 censuses. He is listed as being born in Germany, but it also says British Subject.

He next appears marrying a woman called Jane Kahle on 4th Dec 1837 in Stepney, London. She has a rather complicated history. She is listed as a widow on the marriage certificate, and I've found her maiden name is Lusby. She appears to have married a man called Johann Kahle in 1831 in Kingston upon Hull. She possibly had two daughters with this first husband, called Eliza and Elizabeth. I haven't found out what happened to these daughters or when her first husband died.

The witnesses for the McDougal wedding also had germanic names - Ann KOHFAHL and Ernst KOHFAHL. It seems there was a german community in Stepney at the time, perhaps this is how she met her second german husband?

Anyway, Charles lists his father as a John McDougal, profession 'Gent' on the marriage certificate. However, I have not been able to find any John McDougal from Germany, just a rough date of birth of 1795. Charles' profession is a cigar maker.

I think Charles and Jane had six children: Carl, Francis, Sameul, Anne, Thomas and Eliza.

Charles appears to have died in 1871 in Islington, London.

My questions are numerous! Charles' name changes in various records, some of his children record him as 'Carl McDougal' instead of Charles in their marriage certificates, a hint to an anglicizing of his name? McDougal is not a very german name, so did he change it when he came to England? If so, did he change it from something similar or did he just pick McDougal out of the air! Or was his father also a British subject who happened to be living in Germany and so Charles was born there?

I found this great discussion on the same ancestors which gave me a lot of the above information:
https://www.british-genealogy.com/archive/index.php/t-54069.html

I've looked on Ancestry and Familysearch but just can't seem to find anything that fits. I've tried looking for more germanic names too but no luck.

So any help or suggestions of where to look and what to look for would be greatly appreciated. It would be great if I could work out where he came from! Thanks 

[jim1]

Just to give a start if he states British subject it means at least his father was British.
So he's a British subject born overseas.

[amondg]

Daughter from first marriage Eliza Jane Matilda Kahle baptized 3 May 1833 St Peter Liverpool, her death is registered Hull, J quarter 1840 Vol.22 page 271 she was 7 years old.

[amondg]

Johann Diedrich Kahle was also a cigar maker, Jane could have met her 2nd husband via the trade

[amondg]

Daughter Elizabeth Kahle baptized 2 October 1837 Holy Trinity Hull, married John Whaley 11 November 1860 St Paul Sculcoates Yorkshire.
Two months later her mother is marrying Charles Mc Dougal at St. Dunstan's in Stepney.
This daughter stayed in Hull but who with? she is not with her mother 1841 Stepney nor 1851.
ADDED I saw only a transcription of the marriage it would be good to see the original and if she listed her father as deceased plus witness names.

Charles and Jane McDougal' daughter Ann was born in Hull Yorkshire December Quarter 1844 mothers maiden name given as Kahle, her previous married name not strictly her maiden name

[amondg]

Other children of Charles Mc Dougal and Jane from GRO index

Carl registered Stepney 1839 mothers maiden name Lusby
Francis - Stepney 1840 mothers maiden name Kahle
Samuel - Stepney 1842 mothers maiden name Lusby
Ann -as previous Hull 1844  -Kahle
Thomas -Stepney 1844   --Kahle
Eliza --Hackney Union  1849 -- Lusby

Jane gave both her real maiden name and her previous married name on the children registration

[whiteout7]

Wondering how common the Charles McDougal (born around 1813) name was in England itself?

On "The Genealogist" site 1811-1911 Alnwick The Duke's School Register, Nothumberland his name appears in a search. Alwick is near Scotland

Being Born in 1813, King George the 3rd was the ruling monarch of England (but wasn't he the King of Hanover in Germany too?)   

[rowan35]

Thank you everyone for your replies!

Lots of questions surrounding this family!

I find it very strange that Jane did not take her daughters with her to London (or so it appears) and I wonder who was looking after them. Maybe I can find Elizabeth Kahle in the 1841 census and that will give a clue.

Also strange that Charles and Jane's daughter Ann was born in Hull, while the rest of the children were born in London - perhaps they were visiting Elizabeth/other family up there?

In regards to censuses, I've found the family in 1841, 51, 61, 71 and 81 (Charles died in 1878).

A couple of things of note, in the 1841 census, Charles and his son are down as 'Carl', not Charles, but in 1851 Charles Sn has changed it to Charles while his son is still Carl. But in 1871 the son also changes in to Charles. So are they anglicising their names? Some of the children also refer to their father as 'Carl' on their marriage certificates.

Finally, Charles does not appear with the family in the 1861 and so far I have not found him elsewhere on the census. Was he living apart from the family, was he abroad visiting family? 

I think the name Charles McDougal was not uncommon, especially in Northumberland/near Scotland.

And yes, due to the Hanover family on the throne at the time, there would have been connections between Britain and Germany, so perhaps not unusual for British subjects to be living/working there.

I still haven't managed to trace Charles/Carl in any german records so at a dead end there.

[amondg]

Check the Hull area newspapers for desertion notices by Johann Kahle, "I will not be responsible for debts made by"..... in case Jane ran off with Charles Mc Dougal.

Local not national newspapers may have death recorded.