Author Topic: Charles McDougal born c1813 - German born but British Subject  (Read 1956 times)

Online davecapps

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,791
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Charles McDougal born c1813 - German born but British Subject
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 30 August 18 07:27 BST (UK) »
Hi

1.
the place you are looking for could be Hamburg Altona.
A while ago, whilst looking for a John Macdonel, i found out that there was a British community in Hamburg at the beginning of the 19 century.

I found some info on John Macdonel in the state archive in Hamburg.
https://recherche.staatsarchiv.hamburg.de/ScopeQuery5.2/detail.aspx?ID=1972225

An online search for Macdougal (Mcdougal) brought no results.

2.
Hamburg was incorporated into the French Empire on February 13, 1811.
Therafter all records were administrated by the administrative office (Maire) of the French municipal council. The Hamburg State Archive has records of the children born in this period.

Register "Kinder im Register der Mairie 1811 - 1815"

https://recherche.staatsarchiv.hamburg.de/ScopeQuery5.2/detail.aspx?ID=1069832

To search these files you would have to visit the archive in Hamburg and search the records personnaly.

3.
Members and subscribers of the „Geneaology Community Hamburg“
https://vereine.genealogy.net/GGHH/
have access to these records.

One of their members kindly did a search on MacDougal and found a marriage record that could be a lead.

Plate, Johann,  * abt. 1806,  married. 05.03. 1837 HH-Petri Hamburg, Holzdamm
occupation servant, born in Hünkenbüttel / Stade, religion catholic

Macdougal, Hendrina Maria Cornelia Gertrude, * abt.1803, married 05.03. 1837 HH-Petri
born in Emmerich / Preußen, resident in Hamburg, Voglerswall;  Spinster

Parents: Joannes Macdougal and Anna Catharina Richée

Child:Johanne Malwine Gertrudis Franziska * abt. 1837
married 11.04. 1865 HH-Petri with Evers

4.
By the way. You mentioned Ernst Kohfahl as a witness.  A search for Kohfahl gave several hits

5.
This is all speculation. It´s a long shot,  but could be of relevance.
What it does prove, is that there were Macdougal´s and Kohfahl´s living in Hamburg at the beginning of the 19 Century.

Dave

Online davecapps

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,791
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Charles McDougal born c1813 - German born but British Subject
« Reply #10 on: Thursday 30 August 18 08:38 BST (UK) »
Hi
taking this a step further I did a search for MacDougal, Hamburg, in the  European Library

Source: http://www.theeuropeanlibrary.org/tel4

Hamburger Nachrichten - Hamburg News
http://www.theeuropeanlibrary.org/tel4/newspapers/search?title=Hamburger+Nachrichten&hp=4&page=5&query=macdougal

21 hits. The texts are OCR scans and not very reliable so i´ll give you a quick gist of whats happening.

1. Hamburger Nachrichten 16 November 1799
II. Verzeichnis derjenigen, welche Bürger geworden.
List of people who have been accepted as Bürger (Citizen with all rights)

James Macdougal , Mietbedienter. (hireable servant)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
2. Hamburger Nachrichten 12 September 1816
Bekanntmachung . Annoncement

Summons for various people to attend a hearing in a liquidation case

Herr Macdougal
------------------------------------------------------------------
3. Hamburger Nachrichten 27 Februar 1837
Marriage

Johann Plathe – Hendrina MacDougal
-------------------------------------------------------------------
4. Hamburger Nachrichten 16 March 1815
Advertisment for a newly opened restaurant in Hamburg, Heuberge

MacDougal
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
5. Hamburger Nachrichten 7 March 1838
List of men to be called up for military service

Macdougal, Alfred Johann Christian

etc. etc

Offline Regorian

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,484
  • Henry Griffiths Jnr c1914, HMS Achilles
    • View Profile
Re: Charles McDougal born c1813 - German born but British Subject
« Reply #11 on: Thursday 30 August 18 10:09 BST (UK) »
Evidently, Hanover was the key. Cigar imports from Cuba? In 1813, the French were probably still occupying Hanover. As pointed out, King George III was both his Brittanic Majesty and His Hanoverian Majesty. 1813 was the year of the battles of Lutzen, Bautzen, Dresden and Leipzig (all Saxony). The French would have had to withdraw from Hanover after Leipzig.

Only thing is, British subjects in Hanover during the French occupation were probably interned, as were those caught in France in 1803.

Dates mentioned include 1830's. In 1837 when Victoria became Queen, George III's son the Duke of Cumberland became King George Vth of Hanover. He spent his time between Hanover and England, a very active member of the House of Lords. 

   
Griffiths Llandogo, Mitcheltroy, Mon. and Whitchurch Here (Also Edwards),  18th C., Griffiths FoD 19th Century.

Offline garstonite

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 11,869
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Charles McDougal born c1813 - German born but British Subject
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 30 August 18 10:21 BST (UK) »
My g g grandfather - Carl Freidrich Sacht - British Subject - born HELIGOLAND ...which was British owned but then swapped for Zanzibar with  Germany - thus going from British to German ...Carl Freidrich Sacht became Charles .
there was quite a few Heligoland sailors settled in Liverpool - my own GG Grandfather being one - he settled here in Garston ,Liverpool - Liverpool was the busiest Sea Port in the world at the time - and lets face it - there can't have been many other jobs on that small island except being a sailor - and I notice Liverpool and Hull are mentioned - 2 huge seaports in the 1800s - so it might be worth checking to see if Charles was sailor and a British Subject born in Heligoland ?  sadly Heligoland records were destroyed in WW2 and the island was uninhabited for many many years after the war - now it is a Holiday Haven for many Germans ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heligoland
oakes,liverpool..neston..backford..poulton cum spittal(bebington)middlewich,cheshire......   sacht,helgoland  .......merrick,herefordshire adams,shropshire...tipping..ellis..  jones,garston,liverpool..hartley.dunham massey..barker. salford


Offline whiteout7

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,948
    • View Profile
Re: Charles McDougal born c1813 - German born but British Subject
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 30 August 18 10:23 BST (UK) »
Maybe this is that Kohfahl couple that is later in Stepney?

Marriage, 6 Feb 1831 St Michael, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
John Henry Ernest Kohfahl - Bachelor, this Parish
Ann Roe - Spinster, this Parish
   
Baptism: 5 Sep 1836 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Elizabeth Kohfahl - John Henry Ernest Kohfahl & Ann Roe
Phythian St Low Hill
Agar Maker
   
Baptism: 30 Nov 1836 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancashire, England
Emily Kohfahl - John Henry Ernest Kohfahl & Ann
Phythian St Low Hill
CIGAR MAKER   

Along with the daughters, we might be abel to find them in census's to see if there is more than a casual link between the people involved?

update: Johan Heinrich Ernst ( John Henry Ernest) Kohfahl Born c 1802 in Hamburg, Germany.
Wemyss/Crombie/Laing/Blyth (West Wemyss)
Givens/Normand (Dysart)
Clark/Lister (Dysart)
Wilkinson/Simson (Kettle or Kettlehill)

Offline Regorian

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,484
  • Henry Griffiths Jnr c1914, HMS Achilles
    • View Profile
Re: Charles McDougal born c1813 - German born but British Subject
« Reply #14 on: Thursday 30 August 18 10:40 BST (UK) »
Yes, by 1850 half the Worlds trade went in and out of Liverpool. Don't know whats happened since. What about the Port of London. I read that c1800 a thousand ships were in the Downs waitiing for some sort of easterly to take them up the Thames to London.
Griffiths Llandogo, Mitcheltroy, Mon. and Whitchurch Here (Also Edwards),  18th C., Griffiths FoD 19th Century.

Offline whiteout7

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,948
    • View Profile
Re: Charles McDougal born c1813 - German born but British Subject
« Reply #15 on: Thursday 30 August 18 10:49 BST (UK) »
Johan Heinrich Ernst ( John Henry Ernest) Kohfahl Born c 1802 in Hamburg, Germany.

Heaps of Kohfahl information already covered

https://www.british-genealogy.com/threads/54069-What-might-British-Subject-mean/page3

Wemyss/Crombie/Laing/Blyth (West Wemyss)
Givens/Normand (Dysart)
Clark/Lister (Dysart)
Wilkinson/Simson (Kettle or Kettlehill)

Offline whiteout7

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,948
    • View Profile
Re: Charles McDougal born c1813 - German born but British Subject
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 30 August 18 11:37 BST (UK) »
Eliza Jane Matilda Kahle died in 1840, in Hull, Yorkshire yet
Jane Kahle as married  1837 in Stepney, London.

Could Eiza have been with Lusby or Kahle relatives?
Wemyss/Crombie/Laing/Blyth (West Wemyss)
Givens/Normand (Dysart)
Clark/Lister (Dysart)
Wilkinson/Simson (Kettle or Kettlehill)

Offline rowan35

  • RootsChat Extra
  • **
  • Posts: 7
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Charles McDougal born c1813 - German born but British Subject
« Reply #17 on: Saturday 01 September 18 10:32 BST (UK) »
Thanks everyone, I'm new to family research so I appreciate all the help!

Davecapps, I did a search for that Hendrina Macdougal on Familysearch and found the following:

Name:   Hendrica Maria Macdougall
Gender:   Female
Christening Date:   24 May 1803
Christening Place:   SANKT MARTINI KATHOLISCH,EMMERICH,RHEINLAND,PRUSSIA
Father's Name:   Jois. Macdougall
Mother's Name:   Annae Cath. Risje

I also found a sister:
Name:   Antonetta Anna Macdougall
Gender:   Female
Christening Date:   07 Sep 1804
Christening Place:   SANKT MARTINI KATHOLISCH,EMMERICH,RHEINLAND,PRUSSIA
Father's Name:   Johannis Macdougall
Mother's Name:   Hannae Getrudis Richee

And a marriage between Joannes/Johannis and Hannae/Anna:

Name:   Joannes Macdugall
Spouse's Name:   Anna Catharina Risje
Event Date:   1800
Event Place:   Sankt Martini Katholisch, Emmerich, Rheinland, Prussia

All in Emmerich, and I presume that's the same Hendrica that appears in the Hamburg newspaper search. But I can't find any other children and no Carl/Charles.

In regards to Ernst Kohfal the witness, this is copied from the British Geneology discussion I linked in my OP:
"I saw the posts about Ernst Kohfahl my great great great grandfather , his full name was JOHANN HEINRICH ERNST KOHFAHL and he was born in Hamburg 1802 , he first settled in Liverpool then moved to London and back again to Liverpool where he died in 1857 , he had a son Heinrich [ Henry ] Kohfahl who lived in Liverpool and he also was born in Hamburg in 1825."

So a possible Hamburg connection....