Author Topic: 1870 US Census Birth Location  (Read 468 times)

Offline Erato

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Re: 1870 US Census Birth Location
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 18 August 18 16:08 BST (UK) »
I think it is Chur-Hesse.  This appears to be the census page of interest:

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:S3HT-DZH9-PY2?i=25&cc=1438024

The same enumerator [with a very distinctive 'H'] recorded a number of other people from Chur-Hesse but written without the long double 's.'

http://www.rootschat.com/links/01mjy/
Wiltshire:  Banks, Taylor
Somerset:  Duddridge, Richards, Barnard, Pillinger
Gloucestershire:  Barnard, Marsh, Crossman
Bristol:  Banks, Duddridge, Barnard
Down:  Ennis, McGee
Wicklow:  Chapman, Pepper
Wigtownshire:  Logan, Conning
Wisconsin:  Ennis, Chapman, Logan, Ware
Maine:  Ware, Mitchell, Tarr

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Offline arthurk

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Re: 1870 US Census Birth Location
« Reply #10 on: Saturday 18 August 18 16:09 BST (UK) »
No, none at all, but that's how it reads to me.

Me too - I'd moved on from deciphering to interpreting, and perhaps didn't make that clear.

Going along with Chur-Hessen solely on the basis of finding a folk costume painting of Chur Hessen an der Schwalm https://www.zvab.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=5185512772&searchurl=hl%3Don%26tn%3Dchur%2Bhessen%26sortby%3D20

The double ss is clearer than it was when I first looked.

(The fact that the Schwalm is in North Rhine Westphalia does not preclude the name Hesse/Hessen apperaing in a name) 

There are two rivers called Schwalm - one in North Rhine Westphalia, which flows into the Netherlands and joins the Maas (Meuse), and one in Hesse which joins the Eder:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwalm_(Meuse)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwalm_(Eder)

Interesting to find the Chur-Hessen spelling on that picture. To me that seems to more or less answer the original query, though I'm still curious about the change of spelling, and why the Chur- version seems hard to find.
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

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Offline MaxD

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Re: 1870 US Census Birth Location
« Reply #11 on: Saturday 18 August 18 16:42 BST (UK) »
The spelling Hesse/Hessen is explained here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesse#Name
If the person giving the info was a German speaker, they would have used Hesse.

Also puzzled/annoyed as to why Chur-Hessen eludes diligent searches in both NRW and Hessen!  Even in German.

MaxD
Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline arthurk

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Re: 1870 US Census Birth Location
« Reply #12 on: Saturday 18 August 18 20:05 BST (UK) »
I've found a few references to Chur as an archaic spelling of Kur:

https://asherwin.com/resources/spelling/

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Chur

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BCrst (see Kurfürst in section on Derived Titles)

German spelling has undergone several reforms over the past 150 years. Presumably one of these was responsible for this particular change, but I haven't managed to find which one.
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline barryd

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Re: 1870 US Census Birth Location
« Reply #13 on: Saturday 18 August 18 20:17 BST (UK) »
An example from the internet. Penna and Pa are Pennsylvania, USA. Not my family. 

"My ancestor Phillip Gabriel Von Vogel emigrated from Chur Hesse Germany ~ 1720's On the ship "Samuel" and settled in Penna. in what is now Lehigh county, Pa."

Offline Karen McDonald

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Re: 1870 US Census Birth Location
« Reply #14 on: Saturday 18 August 18 21:11 BST (UK) »
I found a reference to a book from 1819 which mentions Chur-Hessen:

https://books.google.de/books?id=bK5hAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA427&lpg=PA427&dq=Chur+Hesse&source=bl&ots=IEYEvo3iKD&sig=rIjEGjlB1qjsGd8XXGk9N8xmhjM&hl=de&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi87dbhrvfcAhWDI1AKHTbPAXkQ6AEwDHoECAUQAQ#v=onepage&q=Chur%20Hesse&f=false

Scroll to page 427.

It is actually a very interesting book! Mr Siegmeyer obviously put a lot of time & effort into researching distances and costs. (It's all about distances and costs for travelling via stagecoach a hundred years ago.)

Best regards,
Karen

McDonald MacDonald M'Donald McGregor MacGregor M'Gregor Twilley Wells Fentiman Carrington Rowe Needham Mitchell Mackie Collingwood Fuller Maides Shilton Hagon Budd

Offline MaxD

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Re: 1870 US Census Birth Location
« Reply #15 on: Sunday 19 August 18 10:15 BST (UK) »
I'm leaning toward the idea that Chur-Hessen is the term used to cover part of Hessen (perhaps similar to Greater/Lower/Upper etc).  The book that Karen cites draws a distinction between the Postwesen (postal services) of Chur-Hessen and those of Hesse Darmstadt.  The following paragraphs go on to list charges in Chur-Hessen and other charges in what the French translates as the Grand Duchy of Hesse-Dramstadt (with the exception of Mainz).

I also found a (German) query on a German site asking what "ChurFranken" meant  - it is a term still used to cover part of Franken.  I've seen it rendered as UnterFranken (Lower Franken) -see the town of Miltenberg

An 1850 map of the German states may well distinguish between the Grand Duchy of Hesse- Darmstadt and the element which was called ChurHessen.

For what it is worth.

MaxD

Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia

Offline arthurk

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Re: 1870 US Census Birth Location
« Reply #16 on: Sunday 19 August 18 11:26 BST (UK) »
The Wikipedia article I linked to before gave Kurhessen as a name for the Electorate of Hesse, which was also known in German as Hesse-Kassel: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electorate_of_Hesse

This would also fit with the picture of the folk costume of "Chur Hessen an der Schwalm", since the Schwalm is close to Kassel.

Despite the similarity of name, the Electorate of Hesse (Hesse-Kassel or Chur-Hesse) was a separate entity from the Grand Duchy of Hesse (Hesse-Darmstadt) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Duchy_of_Hesse.

Wikipedia has a host of articles on the German states and their history, many with maps. These pages might be a starting point:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Hesse

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hesse
Researching among others:
Bartle, Bilton, Campbell, Craven, Emmott, Harcourt, Hirst, Kellet(t), Kennedy,
Meaburn, Mennile/Meynell, Metcalf(e), Palliser, Robinson, Rutter, Shipley, Stow, Wilkinson

Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline MaxD

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Re: 1870 US Census Birth Location
« Reply #17 on: Sunday 19 August 18 11:37 BST (UK) »
I should have read your earlier suggestion before!  Always more than one way to get to an answer!  I've been trying to find my Neil McGregor book "Memories of a Nation" - don't need it now thanks to you!


MaxD
Double  Essex/Suffolk
Randle/Millington Warwicks
Sokser/Klingler Austria/Croatia