Author Topic: Joseph/Joseph Henry Redfern & Ellen/Lucy Ellen Tidy - Who Were Their Parents?  (Read 200 times)

Offline DavidJP

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Hi all,

I am helping a friend with their family research & have hit a brickwall as regards the above named persons. I cannot get any further back with either of them!

Joseph Henry Redfern married Lucy Ellen Tidy in the September Qtr of 1918 in the Lewisham Registration District. The marriage likely took place in either Lewisham or Sydenham as that is where they were living at the time. The marriage does not appear to be online at all.

Prior to the marriage James Henry Redfern may well have been just plain Joseph Redfern, the Henry seems to appear about the time of  the marriage. In 1918 he is at 38, Acacia Road, Sydenham as James Redfern (Electoral record) & in 1919 he is at 152, Sydenham Road, Sydenham, as James Henry Redfern living with a James & Elizabeth Tidy (Electoral record.) James & Elizabeth Tidy must be related to Lucy Ellen but how I do not know, as I can find nothing more of them either!

I have I believe found James Redfern in 1901, age 6, born London in an Industrial School in Chigwell, Essex (St John the Baptist Ophthalmic School). I haven't as yet been able to find Joseph in 1911 or any Military records for him as regards WW1.

I have I believe also found Lucy Ellen in 1911 as Ellen Tidy, age 12 born Carshalton, Surrey as an inmate in the Croydon Union Children's Home at 316, London Road, Thornton Heath, Surrey. I cannot find her in 1901 though.

Joseph & Lucy had nine children born between 1919 & 1936 all registered in the Lewisham registration district.

Joseph Redfern died in 1936 aged 42 (born c1894) and his death was registered in the Sept Qtr in Lewisham Reg Dist. Lucy Ellen died in 1976. Her death was registered in the Dec Qtr in the Lewisham Reg Dist. The Death Index gave a date of birth for Lucy as 21st April 1898.

Neither Joseph's or Lucy's births appear to have been registered as far as I can see. Also I have been unable to find any baptisms either.

So the question is who on earth were Joseph & Lucy's parents?

If anyone can assist with solving this one, my friend and I would be extremely grateful!

Many thanks in advance.

Kind regards

David
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(For more information on the above surnames please check the Surname Interest Table below.)

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Offline CaroleW

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Re: Joseph/Joseph Henry Redfern & Ellen/Lucy Ellen Tidy - Who Were Their Parents?
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 25 August 18 00:13 BST (UK) »
Quote
So the question is who on earth were Joseph & Lucy's parents?

Buying a copy of the 1918 marriage cert would seem to be a good starting point.  If no fathers are given then you will know they were both illegit

Are you saying James and Joseph are one and the same person?  Freebmd has a birth for a James Henry Redfern in 1893 Chesterfield plus a number for either James or Joseph.  None in the London area

Quote
I have I believe also found Lucy Ellen in 1911 as Ellen Tidy, age 12 born Carshalton, Surrey as an inmate in the Croydon Union Children's Home

Somebody (JeffreyandJanet) has notified an amendment to the 1911 entry adding Lucy so it must be somebody with a connection to the family
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Offline ciderdrinker

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Re: Joseph/Joseph Henry Redfern & Ellen/Lucy Ellen Tidy - Who Were Their Parents?
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 25 August 18 12:18 BST (UK) »
Hello
This is a suggestion on Ancestry
Lucy Ellen Harris born 21 April 1898 bapt 11 May 1890 d of Frederick Harris and Anne Elizabeth Harris at Croydon st James
In 1901 they are at 34 Exeter Road Croydon
Frederick J Harris 37 jobbing carpenter Flushing
Anne Elizabeth 26 Oxted
Fred 12 months Croydon
h crossed through Lucy 3 years Carshalton

Lucy Ellen Harris is registered at Epsom June 1898 mother's maiden name Tidy.

There is no record for a marriage of a Frederick Harris and a Miss Tidy so it looks like mom and dad weren't married and she would legally generally be Lucy Ellen Tidy.

It looks like Mom was Elizabeth Ann Tidy bapt Oxted  8 Mar 1874 born 21 Jan d of James and Elisa labourer.
Another son Daniel born 13 Jan 1907 bapt 12 Feb 1908 at St Martin Croydon of Addiscombe Mews carpenter
William Thomas June 1903 Croydon

As for Dad -1891 census Croydon 60 Leslie Park Road
James Harris 47 carpenter Camborne Cornwall
Harriet J 47 Flushing Falmouth
Annie E 24 machinist same
Fred J  25 coachman
Harriet 18
 Lucy E 13

In 1911 he is in hospital,sons Fred,William and Daniel are under the surname Tidy as is their mother Ann Elizabeth Tidy.
She may be the Ann Elizabeth Tidy who dies in Croydon 1875-Dec 1954
He seems to die in Sep 1912 at Croydon.
You should check out the Croydon Workhouse records.The family obviously was split up when Dad became ill.

I'll have a look for Joseph

Ciderdrinker

Offline avm228

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Re: Joseph/Joseph Henry Redfern & Ellen/Lucy Ellen Tidy - Who Were Their Parents?
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 25 August 18 12:32 BST (UK) »
The opening post seems to have got a bit muddled with the name “James” creeping in for Joseph.  In fact he seems always to be Joseph.

1918: Joseph Redfern is at 9 Acacia Rd, Sydenham
1918 (Sep qtr): Marriage of Joseph H Redfern and Lucy E Tidy, Lewisham
1919: Joseph Henry Redfern is at 152 Sydenham Rd; James & Elizabeth Tidy at same address
1920: Joseph Henry Redfern is at 9 Dillwyn Ave, Lewisham
1932-3: Joseph Henry and Lucy Ellen Redfern are at Winchfield Rd, Sydenham
1936 (Sep qtr): Death reg of Joseph Redfern, 42, Lewisham
Ayr: Barnes, Wylie
Caithness: MacGregor
Essex: Eldred (Pebmarsh)
Gloucs: Timbrell (Winchcomb)
Hants: Stares (Wickham)
Lincs: Maw, Jackson (Epworth, Belton)
London: Pierce
Suffolk: Markham (Framlingham)
Surrey: Gosling (Richmond)
Wilts: Matthews, Tarrant (Calne, Preshute)
Worcs: Milward (Redditch)
Yorks: Beaumont, Crook, Moore, Styring (Huddersfield); Middleton (Church Fenton); Exley, Gelder (High Hoyland); Barnes, Birchinall (Sheffield); Kenyon, Wood (Cumberworth/Denby Dale)

Offline ciderdrinker

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Re: Joseph/Joseph Henry Redfern & Ellen/Lucy Ellen Tidy - Who Were Their Parents?
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 25 August 18 12:46 BST (UK) »
Hello again
Yes i would go for that Chesterfield birth
Baptism at Shireland 5 June 1892
Joseph Henry Redfern s of Joseph Henry and Annie nee Lyman baker
There is a younger brother James  reg Sep 1894 .

1901 census Shirland Derbyshire
Joseph Henry 35 baker Birmingham
Annie 30 Shirland
Joseph Henry 8
James 6
Frank Richard 3
Fred 1
George Willie brother 28 bread baker Shirland

It looks like Joseph Henry died in Chesterfield Dec 1914 but could it be that for some reason the younger brother James took on his name?

No there's a death in 1970 in Mansfield
So not him
Damn.

Ciderdrinker

Offline Annette7

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Re: Joseph/Joseph Henry Redfern & Ellen/Lucy Ellen Tidy - Who Were Their Parents?
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 25 August 18 14:29 BST (UK) »
As stated, Lucy Ellen's parents were Frederick James Harris and Elizabeth Ann Tidy (not married).

Frederick James Harris was bp.4/11/1866 Mylor, Cornwall (residence Flushing), son of James Harris, mariner and Harriet Sarah (on later census in Croydon James is a carpenter).

James Harris, son of James,  married Harriet Sarah Bath (dau. of John) 5/11/1865 Penwerris, Cornwall.

So Lucy Ellen was a Harris by blood, but Tidy by name as parents not married.

Looks like the James and Elizabeth Tidy with Joseph and Lucy Redfern in 1919 are Lucy's maternal uncle and aunt.   (James bc.1880 Oxted, a brother of Lucy's mother Elizabeth Ann, married an Elizabeth Whatcott in Dec.qtr.1908 Godstone).

Annette
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Offline DavidJP

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Re: Joseph/Joseph Henry Redfern & Ellen/Lucy Ellen Tidy - Who Were Their Parents?
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 26 August 18 17:04 BST (UK) »
Hi CaroleW & avm228,

Many thanks for your replies, very much appreciated.

Are you saying James and Joseph are one and the same person?  Freebmd has a birth for a James Henry Redfern in 1893 Chesterfield plus a number for either James or Joseph.  None in the London area

Ooops, my mistake, should be Joseph all the way, I seem to have got slightly confused when typing it up! :-[ Must have been thinking about James Tidy! ::) Apologies for that!


Quote
I have I believe also found Lucy Ellen in 1911 as Ellen Tidy, age 12 born Carshalton, Surrey as an inmate in the Croydon Union Children's Home

Somebody (JeffreyandJanet) has notified an amendment to the 1911 entry adding Lucy so it must be somebody with a connection to the family

Many thanks  for that, I'll check that out, much appreciated.


The opening post seems to have got a bit muddled with the name “James” creeping in for Joseph.  In fact he seems always to be Joseph.

1918: Joseph Redfern is at 9 Acacia Rd, Sydenham
1918 (Sep qtr): Marriage of Joseph H Redfern and Lucy E Tidy, Lewisham
1919: Joseph Henry Redfern is at 152 Sydenham Rd; James & Elizabeth Tidy at same address
1920: Joseph Henry Redfern is at 9 Dillwyn Ave, Lewisham
1932-3: Joseph Henry and Lucy Ellen Redfern are at Winchfield Rd, Sydenham
1936 (Sep qtr): Death reg of Joseph Redfern, 42, Lewisham

yep, your right avm it is Joseph all the way, I did get a bit muddled whilst typing it up! :-[ I really should reread before posting!! ;D Apologies for that!

Kind regards

David
Aitcheson, Aldred, Batty, Bauer, Bone, Brewer, Dean, Doyle, Durant, Fife, Finney, Gibson, Graham/Grayham, Hall, Harrison, Hersey, Hill, Holliss, Hudson, Hussey, Insley, Kelsey, King, Laver, Longmore, Luke, Mellor, Newman, North, Parker, Phillips, Porter, Read, Robinson, Rowel, Spink, Sproxton, Steer, Stevenson, Tanner, Witty/Whitty, Warburton, Wood.
(For more information on the above surnames please check the Surname Interest Table below.)

Offline DavidJP

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Re: Joseph/Joseph Henry Redfern & Ellen/Lucy Ellen Tidy - Who Were Their Parents?
« Reply #7 on: Sunday 26 August 18 17:12 BST (UK) »
Hi Ciderdrinker & Annette7,

Many thanks for your replies, very much appreciated indeed.

Ciderdrinker, many thanks for the Harris/Tidy & Redfern Info, much appreciated indeed. I would never have got that Harris link! I will indeed check the Croydon Workhouse records. Many thanks.

Annette, many thanks for that, I was certain that James & Elizabeth Tidy fitted in somewhere, just couldn't figure how or where! ::)

My thanks again.

Kind regards

David
Aitcheson, Aldred, Batty, Bauer, Bone, Brewer, Dean, Doyle, Durant, Fife, Finney, Gibson, Graham/Grayham, Hall, Harrison, Hersey, Hill, Holliss, Hudson, Hussey, Insley, Kelsey, King, Laver, Longmore, Luke, Mellor, Newman, North, Parker, Phillips, Porter, Read, Robinson, Rowel, Spink, Sproxton, Steer, Stevenson, Tanner, Witty/Whitty, Warburton, Wood.
(For more information on the above surnames please check the Surname Interest Table below.)