Will of Robert Aylmer 1493

[WillowG]

There we have the exact day of death of Richard Aylmer, 3rd of September 1512

Please do be careful when drawing conclusions. In my reply #41 above, I did say there was some guesswork, and you will see that I have queried this particular date. That is because the so-called ‘Latin’ provided -- Jous semtembris trino – has been mistranscribed and is meaningless in this form. While the year 1512 is clearly correct, and supported elsewhere, the exact date 3 September is a guess at what the original might have been. Also, the word Jous might possibly be a mistranscription of Jovis (= Thursday), and that’s yet another guess. Caution is advised.

You are of course entirely correct. It is still good to have the year confirmed as 1512.

Is it Elizabeth, the daughter, or Robert Aylmer, who died on the 15th day of September in the year of the Lord one thousand four hundred and ninety three?

As the memorial is for Elizabeth, I imagine the date of death will be hers, not her father’s.

Normally I would not have been at all in doubt either, it's just that in this case it seemed to coincide so perfectly with this:

In dei Nome amen the iijd day of the moneth ^of July^ in the year of ou(r) Lord god y ^t^ cccclxxxxiijth I Robert Aylemir citezin and alderman of Norwich in my good and hole mynde at Norwich  make my testament and Last Wyll

(Written on the third of July 1493 if I am not mistaken. And this Robert Aylmer (whom I assumed to be her father) does not mention a daughter Elizabeth in his will. He does however have a wife named Elizabeth, increasing the likelihood for a daughter named Elizabeth. So in a lot of ways it would make more sense if this was Robert Aylmer's date of death ... But then life and history does not always make sense. And I thought the phrasing rather ambigious, so I wanted to hear other people's opinions.)

[WillowG]

In a record on Ancestry concerning this will which I find referenced everywhere (the actual will is nowhere to be found of course ) I find the following sentence: 1518 Thursby, Elizabeth, Norwich, wid., "Robert Aylmer late my husbond" 97 to 100 Gylys

Could Gylys (Gyles, Gillies, Giles?) be Elizabeth's maiden name? (See also the court case involving Roger Aylmer and William Gyle in 1439. Could Gyle be Elizabeth's maiden name?)

No, Gylys is the name given to the Register that holds that particular will. (Registers of wills are often designated by the surname of the first testator whose will is recorded in them.)

This is actually brand new information. I never knew this! Thank you.

When you say the will is nowhere to be found, perhaps you mean it is not online? While Ancestry's reference is not particularly helpful, it does at least give you the probate court, the Consistory Court of Norwich, which in turn points to the Norfolk Record Office, where Elizabeth Thursby's will is held, as catalogued here ...

http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/dserve.exe?dsqServer=NCC3CL01&dsqIni=Dserve.ini&dsqApp=Archive&dsqCmd=Show.tcl&dsqDb=Catalog&dsqPos=41&dsqSearch=%28%28Category%3D%27probate%27%29AND%28Date%3D%271518%27%29%29

You could contact NRO and ask for a copy.

I had no idea this was a possibility

ADDED - Elizabeth Thursby's will is online after all ...
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:3Q9M-CSND-39XD-9?i=122&cat=278818

Oh, this is great, thank you so much! Right off to look at it now

[WillowG]

Is there a link for the search function to those wills?

There are several Aylmer wills that I have seen referenced, but have been unable to find ...

I was beginning to think the Olden Historians must have had a magic box with them in their attic or something ...

[Bookbox]

Is it Elizabeth, the daughter, or Robert Aylmer, who died on the 15th day of September in the year of the Lord one thousand four hundred and ninety three?

As the memorial is for Elizabeth, I imagine the date of death will be hers, not her father’s.

Normally I would not have been at all in doubt either, it's just that in this case it seemed to coincide so perfectly with this:

In dei Nome amen the iijd day of the moneth ^of July^ in the year of ou(r) Lord god y ^t^ cccclxxxxiijth I Robert Aylemir citezin and alderman of Norwich in my good and hole mynde at Norwich  make my testament and Last Wyll

(Written on the third of July 1493 if I am not mistaken. And this Robert Aylmer (whom I assumed to be her father) does not mention a daughter Elizabeth in his will. He does however have a wife named Elizabeth, increasing the likelihood for a daughter named Elizabeth. So in a lot of ways it would make more sense if this was Robert Aylmer's date of death ... But then life and history does not always make sense. And I thought the phrasing rather ambigious, so I wanted to hear other people's opinions.)

According to TNA, the probate of Robert's will was dated 2 August 1493, so he cannot have died on 15 September.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D980772

I appreciate the probate details have not been entered in the register copy of the will, so this date presumably comes from another source-record held at TNA (e.g. the original will, act book, etc.).

[WillowG]

Is it Elizabeth, the daughter, or Robert Aylmer, who died on the 15th day of September in the year of the Lord one thousand four hundred and ninety three?

As the memorial is for Elizabeth, I imagine the date of death will be hers, not her father’s.

Normally I would not have been at all in doubt either, it's just that in this case it seemed to coincide so perfectly with this:

In dei Nome amen the iijd day of the moneth ^of July^ in the year of ou(r) Lord god y ^t^ cccclxxxxiijth I Robert Aylemir citezin and alderman of Norwich in my good and hole mynde at Norwich  make my testament and Last Wyll

(Written on the third of July 1493 if I am not mistaken. And this Robert Aylmer (whom I assumed to be her father) does not mention a daughter Elizabeth in his will. He does however have a wife named Elizabeth, increasing the likelihood for a daughter named Elizabeth. So in a lot of ways it would make more sense if this was Robert Aylmer's date of death ... But then life and history does not always make sense. And I thought the phrasing rather ambigious, so I wanted to hear other people's opinions.)

According to TNA, the probate of Robert's will was dated 2 August 1493, so he cannot have died on 15 September.

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D980772

I appreciate the probate details have not been entered in the register copy of the will, so this date presumably comes from another source-record held at TNA (e.g. the original will, act book, etc.).

Excellent. Thank you. So weird that he doesn’t mention her, though. That is something new with these wills (both the Aylmers and the Greys, actually). The ones I have looked on before usually mentions everybody and their mother-in-law and every second cousin they have. Everybody has been so conscientiously listed

Thank you so much again. Love that we found definite proof.

[Bookbox]

Is there a link for the search function to those wills?

There are several Aylmer wills that I have seen referenced, but have been unable to find ...

The Norwich wills are not indexed on FamilySearch, but the published "Index to Wills, Consistory Court of Norwich, 1370-1550" has been digitised by Ancestry and can be searched here ...
https://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1610

Or you can search the NRO catalogue here ...
http://nrocat.norfolk.gov.uk/DServe/public/searches/nroprobate.htm

(Make a note of the folio numbers for whichever will is of interest.)

The FamilySearch wiki then helps you convert the NRO catalogue numbers to FHS film numbers ...
https://www.familysearch.org/wiki/en/Court_of_the_Bishop_(Episcopal_Consistory)_of_Norwich#Records

Enter the film number in the FamilySearch catalogue ...
https://www.familysearch.org/search/catalog/search

Scroll down the results to the relevant film number, click the camera, and browse to the folio numbers given in whichever index you used (Ancestry or the NRO catalogue).

[WillowG]

Oh, this is great! Thank you!

[francoso]

FWIW
Snippet #8:
...helmyngton and other townes therto adioynyng with that appurtenannces to hold to the same

Simon's Suffolk Churches http://www.suffolkchurches.co.uk/helmingham.htm
"St Mary is that rare thing in Suffolk, an estate church. At the west end of the graveyard is a large ornamental lake; a herd of deer graze among the trees beside it, and beyond that is the splendid pile of Helmingham Hall, home of the Tollemache family for generations."

"They were living here in the 15th century, and it was John Tollemache who signed the contract for the tower in 1488 - it survives in the Bodleian Library. The Tollemache arms and Marian symbols decorate it, and along the bottom is the outrageously Catholic inscription Scandit Ethera Virgo Puerpera Virgula Jesse ("The Virgin Mary, branch of Jesse's stem, is assumed into Heaven")."

This is the same inscription appearing in https://archive.org/stream/cu31924031319944#page/n68
House Mottoes and Inscriptions p.45.
Regards
francoso

[WillowG]

FWIW
Snippet #8:
...helmyngton and other townes therto adioynyng with that appurtenannces to hold to the same

Simon's Suffolk Churches http://www.suffolkchurches.co.uk/helmingham.htm
"St Mary is that rare thing in Suffolk, an estate church. At the west end of the graveyard is a large ornamental lake; a herd of deer graze among the trees beside it, and beyond that is the splendid pile of Helmingham Hall, home of the Tollemache family for generations."

"They were living here in the 15th century, and it was John Tollemache who signed the contract for the tower in 1488 - it survives in the Bodleian Library. The Tollemache arms and Marian symbols decorate it, and along the bottom is the outrageously Catholic inscription Scandit Ethera Virgo Puerpera Virgula Jesse ("The Virgin Mary, branch of Jesse's stem, is assumed into Heaven")."

This is the same inscription appearing in https://archive.org/stream/cu31924031319944#page/n68
House Mottoes and Inscriptions p.45.
Regards
francoso

Oh, this is wonderful!!! Well done! Then we were right about Suffolk!!!

I know I have come across the Tollemaches before in some capacity. This really is very exciting. There is something deeply satisfying about charting waters that so many have tried and failed before, and succeeding!

As a group, I must say that we are really, really good