Kiama, NSW Birth - Hellen GRANT

[jma09]

Does the wonderful brains trust think that Ellen from Cooma is my Hellen?

To summarise the differences
1. Age Ellen is 6 years older than Hellen
2. Cooma vs Kiama
3. Mother is Ellen on marriage record, but Cooma has Betsy as mother.
4. Where did the Elizabeth come from when Helen was buried?

I have also attached some other bits that Wivenhoe wanted.
The photo is the only one I have with something written on the back
The names from the bible are mostly Sutton except for "ellen" and Mary Knipe.  (my family are not very good documenters!)
The birthdate came from my G'mother's birthday book  14 Aug
 
Janine

[wivenhoe]

Thank you for these images.

"..Where did the Elizabeth come from when Helen was buried?"

It came from the informant. Who is named as informant?

On birth certificates of her children - what age and birth place for mother Hellen?. Hellen might not have been so fussed about her age as mother of her children, and given other opportunities, people will sometimes give a slightly different location for birth place.

On the photo - I am only seeing "gran". I cannot make out anything else. And this is grandmother GRANT.....or grandmother SUTTON?

My interest in the details you are using is to separate the work of earlier researchers, from information recorded at the time of the event.

Where and when was the bible printed?. Might have been brought out to Australia from.....where?....by?......  Some were printed by Bible Societies.

You have a photo of Mary and Hellen taken in 1904. This is additional to the one you have attached here?. Can we see it please.

If Hellen has a connection to the KNIPE family, it might be more specifically through the BRAMHALLs.

I think it would be useful to know more about them....and what the birth registration of Oscar as BRAMHALL, 1872, is about.

[rosball]

There is a probate packet for Oscar Abram KNIPE at NSW archives https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/item/685823
which I can photograph for you next time I am there.  It should contain a death certificate and occasionally there are other certificates.

Ros

[rosball]

Just adding  a link to marriage notice for Mary BRAMHALL and John KNIPE
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article12993936 (Sydney Morning Herald 9th april 1857)


On the 4th March, at Mudgee, in the Registrar's Office, by Mr.
Murray, the District Registrar, Mr. John Knipe, of Cobbera,
farmer, to Mary Ann, daughter of William Bramhall, of Windsor,
England.

Ros

[jma09]

Thanks Rosball, Oscar's probate pack would be very useful.

I have not got a full copy of Eileen Sutton's birth certificate (only an extract!) so I'll get that in train.  You are right Wivenhoe, her birth certificate may give us a bit more information.

"..Where did the Elizabeth come from when Helen was buried?" The first time Hellen uses the 'elizabeth' is at the marriage of Eileen in 1917.  She was also an executor for a friend in 1933 and used 'elizabeth' there.  Her dc also has 'elizabeth'.  Who is named as informant? Walter Aldridge is the informant - Eileen's husband.

The photo was of Hellen Sutton nee GRANT.  I only have a photocopy of the other 1904 photo which does not scan well and nothing was noted on the back.

If Hellen has a connection to the KNIPE family, it might be more specifically through the BRAMHALLs.  Mary Bramhall came to Australia as a cook in 1855, with her sister Emma.  She was born in Windsor and her father was in the 1st lifeguards.  Mary was pregnant when she arrived and a daughter (Amelia) was born 4 months after the ship docked.  She was also bought up by John Knipe but he wasn't the father.

what is birth registration of Oscar as BRAMHALL, 1872 about.   Don't know ... he was christened BRAMHALL but all other doco says KNIPE.  "Abram" as his second name has always confused the issue.

I'll order the birth certs for Eileen and Edna.
Cheers

[Jamjar]

Possibly Abraham on the 1841 UK census: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:M771-6L5

The 1851: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:SG8T-BQ5

Looks like he may have had a sister Elizabeth and Ellen’s mother was Elizabeth, hence (H)Ellen’s middle name. Also, a brother Philip, middle name of first son in Australia.

Elizabeth not being on the birth certificate doesn’t mean she didn’t have a middle name. I have a ancestor who was registered as Ellen and after that she was always Helen, with two middle names, on all other documentation.

Jamjar

[wivenhoe]

 Age and birthplace of mother Ellen might be interesting to see?  I am sure your Hellen is several older than the 26 that she has on the marriage certificate. Hellen is ready to describe herself as older than husband John...but only just.

NSW BDM birth
12895 / 1883 GRANT  Lila M    parents - / Ellen   @ Dubbo

I don't know if your Hellen likes creative variations of names......Hylene, Hellen etc or if she is just not fussed about spelling. I would expect to see her as Ellen / Helen / Hellen.

The name ABRAM appears as given name and family name in NSW BDM index. I do not know if it was an abbreviation of Abraham, and assumed use as a given name, or if it is really a family name, and confused with shortened form of  Abraham, given name.

Betsy MAGUIRE, 25 at 1860, b. Limerick....no marriage 1858, Victoria.......

If Betsy is married (to someone else) you might hope to find births in Victoria pre 1858 with mother
Betsy / Elizabeth / Eliza M*GUIRE. I am not seeing any, assuming that they were registered.

If Betsy is unmarried, then, arriving in NSW, she has........died?....parted from Abraham?...... free to marry as Betsy M*GUIRE?

[wivenhoe]

Dubbo Liberal and Macquarie Advocate 30 Jul 1932 p1
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/131613995?
...Oscar KNIPE returning to Dubbo....left 1897....meeting old friends.....
(no mention of Hellen SUTTON)

[majm]

.....
I'll order the birth certs for Eileen and Edna.

Please consider ordering the Official Transcription for Edna, and wait until you have closely examined it before considering ordering Eileen's.   Official transcriptions come already transcribed, and with all the info on the real deal certificate and are not as expensive. (NSW BDM birth certs also include info about the baby's older siblings  - so I am suggesting Edna's should have info about Eileen on it  )

NSW BDM online lists its three approved Official Transcribers :  (All are excellent)

https://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/Pages/family-history/family-history.aspx#Askafamilyhistorytranscriptionagent

Eileen's is ref # 12023/1894

Edna's is ref # 30244/1898

JM