Author Topic: Kiama, NSW Birth - Hellen GRANT  (Read 2809 times)

Offline jma09

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Re: Kiama, NSW Birth - Hellen GRANT
« Reply #9 on: Friday 31 August 18 00:54 BST (UK) »
What is the earliest evidence you have of Hellen GRANT, before her name on the marriage certificate?
I don't actually have anything except the bible entry - which is just "Gran 14 Aug" and then someone has added 1866 next to it.
How and where do you see her with her father?
Never.  I can see where Abraham is and I can see where John Knipe is.  Hellen was bought up by the Knipes (Family 'myth'). 
How and where do you see Hellen GRANT with the KNIPE family? I have a photo of Mary & Hellen taken in 1904.   There is a bit more info on Oscar from a newspaper article but nothing on Hellen.  My grandmother thought she was a KNIPE.

Can you please scan, and place here,  the whole page in the bible which has the birth reference.

The entry is a page by itself, as above.  The rest of the entries are all post Hellen's marriage.
ALDRIDGE - Chesham Bois & Hawridge BUCKS, Marylebone MDX;   BRAILEY - MDX
GRANT - Jersey, MAHER - Tipperary, MAGUIRE -  Limerick, HEDGES-Heath & Reach BEDS
BELL, HAUGH, MCNEIL - Dalton, Dumfries, SCT;  MURRAY- Ruthwell, Dumfries  "Bellridden"
 CARLYLE - Brydekirk, Limekilns;  MCNEIL - Hoddom
GREIG - Pathhead, SCT
KENWORTHY, BUCKLEY, GARFORT - Saddleworth
BYERS- Bolton, Westmoreland
SUTTON- Stockport, Farnborough, Banbury
BUSWELL - The Bartons, Oxfordshire ; STEVENS- Bicester

Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Kiama, NSW Birth - Hellen GRANT
« Reply #10 on: Friday 31 August 18 02:59 BST (UK) »
We really need to determine the status of the information you are giving a forum to work with.


........ "Gran 14 Aug" and then someone has added 1866 next to it...........
The fact that 1866 fits with her age at marriage might be the reason that 1866 was added on the bible..........and added many years later by a grandchild. 


...........Hellen was bought up by the Knipes (Family 'myth').....................
This is useful to know....... 

...........I have a photo of Mary & Hellen taken in 1904.............
How do you know  the details of the photo  ie  names and date? Anyone else in the photo? can we see the photo please -back and front.

......The entry is a page by itself, as above.  The rest of the entries are all post Hellen's marriage....
Where you have family information in the bible, can you scan these pages for us to see. Presentation of information is useful.

....My grandmother thought she was a KNIPE.......
Where do you see Hellen thinking that she was a KNIPE?  You mean that Hellen told....who?....that she was a KNIPE....and she married as GRANT?

What do you know about the KNIPE family?

Offline Jamjar

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Re: Kiama, NSW Birth - Hellen GRANT
« Reply #11 on: Friday 31 August 18 04:14 BST (UK) »
This is the only birth on NSWBDM with father Abraham and Cooma could easily have been misheard as Kiama.

6534/1860 GRANT ELLEN parents ABRAHAM and BETSY COOMA

A death in Forbes, maybe the family were on the way from Cooma to Dubbo:

4546/1862 GRANT BETSY mother ELIZABETH at FORBES

Jamjar
Atkinson; Badier; Cameron; Grant; Howie; Jardine; Jenkins; Kerr; Lawardorn; Lee; Linton; Lonie; McConnell; Morgan; Morrison; Murphy; O'Leary; Paton; Pratt; Robb; Williams

Offline jma09

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Re: Kiama, NSW Birth - Hellen GRANT
« Reply #12 on: Friday 31 August 18 07:11 BST (UK) »
Thanks everyone .. loving the help and the testing of my assumptions

Yes, I have seen the Cooma entry (attached) but had discarded it as being too early 1860 - 1937 would have made Hellen 77(71) when she died and 33(26) when she got married.  Is this assumption too constricting?

I really don't have much more information than I have put in this chat.  The Knipes lived at Cobborah until the mid 1870s and then moved to Dubbo.  John died in 1884 and Mary was in Dubbo until 1913 and she died in 1917 in Sydney (with Oscar).

Hellen never thought she was a KNIPE - always a GRANT.  But the family, 2 generations on, thought there was a link between the KNIPES and Hellen and Oscar Knipe was always treated as Hellen's brother.

I was hoping for some left field sources or ideas I could look at as I seem to have exhausted the normal ones - eg are there any adoption sources for Country NSW in the late 1860s.

ALDRIDGE - Chesham Bois & Hawridge BUCKS, Marylebone MDX;   BRAILEY - MDX
GRANT - Jersey, MAHER - Tipperary, MAGUIRE -  Limerick, HEDGES-Heath & Reach BEDS
BELL, HAUGH, MCNEIL - Dalton, Dumfries, SCT;  MURRAY- Ruthwell, Dumfries  "Bellridden"
 CARLYLE - Brydekirk, Limekilns;  MCNEIL - Hoddom
GREIG - Pathhead, SCT
KENWORTHY, BUCKLEY, GARFORT - Saddleworth
BYERS- Bolton, Westmoreland
SUTTON- Stockport, Farnborough, Banbury
BUSWELL - The Bartons, Oxfordshire ; STEVENS- Bicester


Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Kiama, NSW Birth - Hellen GRANT
« Reply #13 on: Friday 31 August 18 07:55 BST (UK) »


"..Oscar Knipe was always treated as Hellen's brother."

Do you mean "treated" by later researchers, and based on the reference to O KNIGHT in the obit, 1937, for Hellen SUTTON?.

I would keep an open mind about Hellen being 26 years old at marriage, 1892. I think Hellen is possibly older. Harmless human vanity often caused men and women to fudge their ages.


NSW BDM
marriage
2177/1857 KNIPE  John  m. BRAMHALL Mary Ann  @ Mudgee

birth
13641 / 1872 BRAMHALL  Oscar Abraham parents - /  May Ann    @  Mudgee
13641 / 1872 BRAMHALL  Oscar A            parents - /  Mary A      @ Gulgong

death
13044 / 1946 KNIPE  Oscar Abram  parents John / Mary Ann @ Redfern


Do you have birth certificates for daughters Eileen b. 1894 and Edna b. 1898.

Can you p[lease consider my questions about the photo and the written entries in the bible.

Offline Jamjar

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Re: Kiama, NSW Birth - Hellen GRANT
« Reply #14 on: Friday 31 August 18 08:00 BST (UK) »
Trove, 20 June 1861:

JERSEY.— If this should meet the eye of Abraham Grant, or Nicolas Francis Lempriere, late of Jersey, they will please send their address to N. De La Cour, 287 Spencer street, friends at home being very anxious to hear from, them.

Finding his death may be useful. I can’t find him.

Jamjar
Atkinson; Badier; Cameron; Grant; Howie; Jardine; Jenkins; Kerr; Lawardorn; Lee; Linton; Lonie; McConnell; Morgan; Morrison; Murphy; O'Leary; Paton; Pratt; Robb; Williams

Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Kiama, NSW Birth - Hellen GRANT
« Reply #15 on: Friday 31 August 18 08:05 BST (UK) »
BDM VIC birth
1859 / 10172 GRANT   Abraham Phillip   parents Abraham / Elizabeth (Maguire)   
b. Indigo

I cannot see a marriage in VIC

Offline Jamjar

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Re: Kiama, NSW Birth - Hellen GRANT
« Reply #16 on: Friday 31 August 18 08:07 BST (UK) »
An Abraham Grant getting a medal in 1897, Newcastle, first column.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article231816989

Jamjar
Atkinson; Badier; Cameron; Grant; Howie; Jardine; Jenkins; Kerr; Lawardorn; Lee; Linton; Lonie; McConnell; Morgan; Morrison; Murphy; O'Leary; Paton; Pratt; Robb; Williams

Offline wivenhoe

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Re: Kiama, NSW Birth - Hellen GRANT
« Reply #17 on: Friday 31 August 18 08:27 BST (UK) »

Unassisted passengers VIC
"Exact"  Nov 1852  GRANT Abraham  origin JER age 37

numerous French family names on this ship - but not Lempriere