Michael Donovan Marriage Info

[majm]

well found JenB 

JM

[JenB]

Re John as English

13 Aug 1877, Carrie DONOVAN, admitted to Globe Road School, Town Hamlets, London, born 11 November 1871, with father as  Michael DONOVAN, 6 Ernest Place

Same date of admission as Carrie, there’s a John DONOVAN, admitted to same school, born 23 August 1873, with same father as Carrie.

I have not looked for their discharge, nor for their births, nor sightings of them on 1881 Census.

JM

1881 census

RG 11/ 421/52/97

6, Ernest Place, Bethnal Green

Michael Donovan, head, mar, 31, Hatter, Ireland
Caroline Donovan, wife, mar, 30, Middlesex Bethnal Green
Caroline do, daur, 9, scholar, do do
John do, son, 7, do, do do
A ?? do, son, 3, do, do do

Going by the mother's maiden name on the GRO birth index for the children, this particular Michael Donovan married a Caroline Emma Morgan in Lambeth R.D. in 1867.

In 1871 they are living at 6, Ernest Place, and John is a Journeyman Hatter., born in Cork (RG 10 / 489 / 100 / 76)

In 1891 Caroline E Donovan is living in Whitechapel with daughter Maud, born 1886, and she states she is a widow (RG 12 / 282 / 6/ 6)

[JenB]

Freeman’s Journal and Daily Commercial Advertiser, (Dublin, Ireland) of Friday 6 November, 1896,  (Gale Document Number: BC3204964310)

IRISH MUSICAL FEIS COMMITTEE
The Executive Committee of the Feis met on Tuesday evening at the Royal Irish Academy House ….. Subscriptions were acknowledged from ….And Miss Carrie Donovan, 267 Hackney Road, London.

There is a Donovan family living at 267 Hackney Road in 1891. It is headed by a 63 year old Denis Donovan, a widower born in Cork. Among his children is a 26 year old Caroline Donovan, who is presumably the 'Carrie' mentioned above. RG 12 / 254/ 95/ 2.

[majm]

Hi Martin,

I have found the online index entry that led you to form the view that your John DONOVAN’s desertion was withdrawn by the SS Bradford City in 1911. 
https://www.familyhistorysa.org/
 
One of the webpages there is the Persons Lost and Found 1838 to 1920 and that has notes and a key to the abbreviations they have used.    Here’s a relevant summary:

30,900 deserters from wives, families, ships, military and other service ..... compiled from South Australian Police Gazettes,
.........  ....PG = South Australian Police Gazette......

I can see that there’s four ships deserters found in their index:
https://www.familyhistorysa.org/sahistory/deserters.html 

DONOVAN John, 23 y, native of IRL. Deserted SS Bradford City at Port Pirie. Source: PG 1911 p 164, 173. [Ship having sailed, warrant withdrawn by PG 5-7-1911]
 
(Martin, this must be where your information came from, as your post on the decipher board seems to be copy and paste from this.)

DONOVAN John, 51 y, native of Plymouth. Arrived on 'Lord Lyndoch'. Absconded on pass from Launceston to Deloraine. Extract from TAS Crime Report. Source: PG 1871, p 178 (Martin, this one cannot be your chap, wrong age)

DONOVAN John. Deserted 'Bundaleer' 1-9-1874. Source: D6  (Martin, your chap was aged 38 in 1910, so it is not possible he was a crewmember of any ship in 1874)

DONOVAN John. Deserted 'Lord Hungerford' Dec 1856. Source: D6 (Martin, this chap deserted long before your chap was born).

Martin,  Your information across several threads shows that your chap died in Port Pirie, a waterside worker there, aged 38 in 1910.   So, basically, 1910 – 38 gives a birth year of about 1872, so he was not the 23 year old in 1911, nor any of the others listed either. 


For others following this thread, there’s also other threads to help find Martin’s John DONOVAN... see 
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800161.0

May I continue to suggest that you consider putting together a summary and start a thread on the main general board for England.  Please do remember to include links to all these threads about John Donovan.

ADD

Firstly as far back as I can remember my grandmother would tell us about her father John Donovan and where he came from as well as his parents being publicans. Secondly S.A. register have records of John and Elizabeth's marriage which gives his father's name as  Michael as well as their 3 daughters. John's name is on a list of deserters, which ship we are not sure of, the retraction was made by the SS Bradford City (built 1903) 1911. I also understand Irish research can be difficult due to the lack of records. Macnamara should not even get a look in.

and

The only extra info we now is once deserting ship in Port Pirie Sth Australia about 1894 he married my g grandmother Elizabeth Ann Brooks 12 Feb 1895. He died 12 Sept 1910 aged 38. The oral history about parents being publicans and his father marring twice came from him. As far as we know he was not cathlic.

JM

[M S Harmer]

I can add the summery to the U.K. board but how do I add the links ? never had to do it before.
John is turning out to be a bit of a mystery.
The list of deserters is actually a 28 page PDF I found while searching our J Donovan and                   2 J donovon's all Pt Pirie.

Thanks for everyone's work so far hopefully something will come of this.

[majm]

Here’s a suitable live link you can copy and paste into your proposed new thread :
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=799627.0 


JM

[majm]

So, if considering the info about John DONOVAN (son of Michael) as be John (Jack) DONOVANs 1910 obit well  in 1890 or a little earlier, John DONOVAN arrived in Port Pirie, South Australia.  1910 - 38 gives possible birth year of 1872ish ... so John was around 18 years of age when he arrived in South Australia.   If an Englishman, then there's only one UK census to be searched ... 1881 ...

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800161.0

and also

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=799627.0 

But umm...  I was suggesting that a summary of the English aspects could be placed on the general England board (add in a new thread), with reference back to the live link I have included in this post.

You see, Michael DONOVAN is the person named as father of John DONOVAN who died in South Australia in 1910.  In the Obituary for that John Donovan, there's mention he was an Englishman.

Here's the obit : https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/95241468   
includes the following : 

Mr.Donovan was an Englishman by birth, had followed the sea as a vocation for some time, and a little over 20 years ago came to Port Pirie, where, except for a short while now and again, he continued to work on the wharfs, first as a labourer and then as foreman stevedore. Of late years he had been largely employed by the Spencer Gulf Stevedoring Company. Mr. Donovan was at the time of his death, comparatively speaking, but a young man, being  only 38 years of age, and he has left a widow and young family of three, for whom much sympathy is felt.

JM

JM

[M S Harmer]

RE; posting summery.

What we do know about John Donovan;
Born abt 1873
Have his name on a list of ship deserters in Pt Pirie.

DONOVAN John, 23 y, native of IRL. Deserted SS Bradford City at Port Pirie. Source: PG 1911 p 164, 173.
[Ship having sailed, warrant withdrawn by PG 5-7-1911]
Worked on the warves Pt Pirie sometimes as an interpreter.
According to Sth Aust. marriage registry his father s name was given as Michael.
Mothers name unknown.

Married Elizabeth Ann Brooks,  Daughter of  Thomas and Annie Brooks, 12 Feb. 1895, Pt Pirie, Sth Aust.
They had 3 daughters Ethel May Adelaide (1895), Annie (1899) and Vera Doutheen (1904) my grandmother).
John died 10 Sept. 1910, Pt Pirie.
Elizabeth remarried 1 Mar. 1912 to a John McGrath.
Local news paper of the time describes John DONOVAN as an Englishman !

Oral History;
Only son of an only son.
First or middle name may have been Michael, after his father.
Was from County Cork.
Father remarried after first wife died. Was always told second wife was French !
Was put into a school / monastery (age unknown) to become a priest (Not sure before or after mother died) but ran away and became a merchant seaman.
Father was a publican / spirit dealer.
Both John's knew each other possibly back in Ireland.

Unsure of ship he deserted, the  SS Bradford City to my knowledge was built 1903 or 06 and sunk about 1942. Would have had to have deserted before 1895.

Personnel note. I still don't think he was an Englishman.

[majm]

Hi Martin,

I am sorry, but ....  your John DONOVAN was NOT the 23 year old listed as a deserter as per your info here:

.....
DONOVAN John, 23 y, native of IRL. Deserted SS Bradford City at Port Pirie. Source: PG 1911 p 164, 173.
[Ship having sailed, warrant withdrawn by PG 5-7-1911]...

I am very sure that the above information originates from the South Australian Police Gazette of 1911, at pages 164 and 173.   Those two pages note that a person in June 1911 named John Donovan, deserted the SS Bradford City at Port Pirie.   Your John Donovan was already deceased when that John Donovan, a sailor on the SS Bradford City deserted that vessel.

I have carefully transcribed the information from the PG 1911 P 164, 173 and uploaded to your threads earlier.  Please do read back and check.   

I have diligently searched to find any record of a John or Jack DONOVAN deserting in 1894 and earlier, and confirm I have not found anyone that would be a likely candidate for your chap.

I note that the Trove obituary was published after the newspaper provided a notice to the effect that they were intending to publish one.  So there was plenty of opportunity for the locals to provide information about Jack, including that he was an Englishman.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/95241396 14 September 1910

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/95241468  17 September 1910

I confirm that I searched through the rest of September 1910 issues of that Port Pirie Recorder and North Western Mail newspaper for any mention of anyone contradicting the information in the obituary.  I found none.  I am happy to be corrected.    The newspaper is digitised and freely available for searching at https://trove.nla.gov.au/

JM

Hi Martin,

I have found the online index entry that led you to form the view that your John DONOVAN’s desertion was withdrawn by the SS Bradford City in 1911. 
https://www.familyhistorysa.org/
 
One of the webpages there is the Persons Lost and Found 1838 to 1920 and that has notes and a key to the abbreviations they have used.    Here’s a relevant summary:

30,900 deserters from wives, families, ships, military and other service ..... compiled from South Australian Police Gazettes,
.........  ....PG = South Australian Police Gazette......

I can see that there’s four ships deserters found in their index:
https://www.familyhistorysa.org/sahistory/deserters.html 

DONOVAN John, 23 y, native of IRL. Deserted SS Bradford City at Port Pirie. Source: PG 1911 p 164, 173. [Ship having sailed, warrant withdrawn by PG 5-7-1911]
 
(Martin, this must be where your information came from, as your post on the decipher board seems to be copy and paste from this.)

DONOVAN John, 51 y, native of Plymouth. Arrived on 'Lord Lyndoch'. Absconded on pass from Launceston to Deloraine. Extract from TAS Crime Report. Source: PG 1871, p 178 (Martin, this one cannot be your chap, wrong age)

DONOVAN John. Deserted 'Bundaleer' 1-9-1874. Source: D6  (Martin, your chap was aged 38 in 1910, so it is not possible he was a crewmember of any ship in 1874)

DONOVAN John. Deserted 'Lord Hungerford' Dec 1856. Source: D6 (Martin, this chap deserted long before your chap was born).

Martin,  Your information across several threads shows that your chap died in Port Pirie, a waterside worker there, aged 38 in 1910.   So, basically, 1910 – 38 gives a birth year of about 1872, so he was not the 23 year old in 1911, nor any of the others listed either. 


For others following this thread, there’s also other threads to help find Martin’s John DONOVAN... see 
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=800161.0

May I continue to suggest that you consider putting together a summary and start a thread on the main general board for England.  Please do remember to include links to all these threads about John Donovan.

ADD

Firstly as far back as I can remember my grandmother would tell us about her father John Donovan and where he came from as well as his parents being publicans. Secondly S.A. register have records of John and Elizabeth's marriage which gives his father's name as  Michael as well as their 3 daughters. John's name is on a list of deserters, which ship we are not sure of, the retraction was made by the SS Bradford City (built 1903) 1911. I also understand Irish research can be difficult due to the lack of records. Macnamara should not even get a look in.

and

The only extra info we now is once deserting ship in Port Pirie Sth Australia about 1894 he married my g grandmother Elizabeth Ann Brooks 12 Feb 1895. He died 12 Sept 1910 aged 38. The oral history about parents being publicans and his father marring twice came from him. As far as we know he was not cathlic.

JM

JM