Author Topic: Catholic Priest records  (Read 770 times)

Offline pet50ite

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Re: Catholic Priest records
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 04 September 18 09:43 BST (UK) »
Hi Wexflyer,
I'm sorry I haven't been clear enough. My original query was whether anyone knew of any online church directories so that I could look for myself but everyone has been so helpful and asked me specific questions that I did my best to answer.
The facts I have are as follows and might have to be done in several parts (some of which were mentioned in the threads I mentioned at the beginning of this thread).

Records that mentionJames Sinnott (my great grandfather)
Death/Glasnevin 1919 6 Wellesley Place
1911 census 6 Wellesley Place with wife Mary
1906 Prison for embezzlement. 6 Wellesley Place. Where born Grand Canal St
Daughters's weddings
1. 1909 Mary Josephine/James Cowan 6 Wellesley Place
2. Esther/Joseph Byrne 6 Welesley Place
3. 1901 Catherine/James Gaffney 3 Simmons Place
1901 census 3 Simmons Place with wife Mary, daughters Catherine, Esther, Mary Josephine, mother Catherine (born c1818 Wexford) and brother in law James Conlon.
Daughters births
1886 Mary Josephine 12 Summer Place. sponsors Richard Sinnott/Mary English
1885 Esther 8 Buckingham buildings
1881 Catherine 17 Summer Place sponsor Teresa Conlon
James' marriage to Mary Conlon. Church records sept 1880. James 14 St Patricks Avenue, North Strand. Mary 17 Summer Place. The marriage was officially registered 4/5 months later with the same details except that it list his father as Patrick Sinnott, sea captain, decd.
James Bapt Feb 1859 St. Andrews Westland Row. Mother Catherine Walsh, Father Edward Sinnott address Gratton Court.
Probable father and siblings of James in Glasnevin grave.
Edward Sinnott 4 Merrion square dies 1867 age 57
Richard Sinnott 48 Strandville Avenue, dies 1890 age 32. Newspaper report said it was a suicide. His mother Catherine was asked to speak at the inquest.
Robert Sinnott 14 Marshall Terrace dies 1877 age 20
Edward Sinnott 9 Powers Court dies 1865 age 10
Plus possible niece Charlotte 7 Berkeley Street dies 1876 age 2
Marriage details of probable bother John marrying Mary Condon 1871
John 8 Clarence Place Father Edward Sinnott coachmaker Mother Catherine Walsh
Mary 8 Caroline Row Father Michael Condon Mother Mary O'Hanlon
Probable sibling baptisms at St. Andrews Westland Row
Robert 1857 sponsor Ellen Stoke
Edward 1854 sponsors Mary Byrne/James Brophy
John 1847 sponsors John Wilson/Mary Roche
It was at this point that I contacted a research company to prove/disprove a different family story that James or his father were sailors. They could find no records to back this story. They agreed with the rest of the details I had sent but did not mention James brother Richard. They found a likely marriage for his parents in Monkstown 1846 and possible births for Catherine 1819 Ballenhillen, Ballyoughter and Edward 1821 Ballyoughter but could not prove conclusively that they were the right people.
I hope this is not too much information
cowan, sinnott, duffy, addi, conlon, halpin, (dublin) dowling, mcdonald, donnelly (dublin, newcastle upon tyne and tyrone)

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Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Catholic Priest records
« Reply #28 on: Tuesday 04 September 18 10:39 BST (UK) »
Thanks for the details -  so much easier with those in hand! Seems to me that there are several serious issues with this pedigree.

You say the 1880 marriage registration for James Sinnott gives his father as Patrick, a sailor, and you say that family tradition supports the idea of the family being sailors.  But then you have James as the son of an Edward Sinnott, rather than Patrick, and that there is no evidence for the latter as a sailor.  Clearly these don't fit!

Second, the connection to Wexford is, as I suspected, simply one of the names/dates roughly fitting.
You have to bear in mind that many/most records from 1820s don't survive, so it is the classic case of "looking under the lamp post." If all the records did survive, then I am certain that you would have multiple candidates for both Catherine Walsh, and Patrick or Edward Sinnott - who may not even have been from Wexford.

Third, if the family tradition of a seafaring occupation is correct, then Ballyoughter - an inland parish - is a highly unlikely place of origin. It would point to a coastal origin instead. Sailors could settle down on land, but landlubbers rarely became sailors.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens; CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter; COSGRAVE Castlebridge; CULLEN Lady's Island; CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook; DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack; FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown; HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wexford; McGILL Litter; MORRIS Forth Commons; PIERCE Lady's Island; POTTS Bennettstown; REDMOND Ballygarrett; ROCHEx2 Wexford; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit; SHERIDAN Monadurtlow; SINNOTT Wexford; SMYTH Gerry/Oulart; WALSH Kilrane/Wexford

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Offline culbaire

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Re: Catholic Priest records
« Reply #29 on: Tuesday 04 September 18 12:05 BST (UK) »
I have gone through the 24 priests named Sinnott in the index of the book mentioned above about the Priests of the Diocese of Ferns. Cannot identify even one find that might possibly be a brother of Edward Sinnott born 1821 in Ballyoughter, never mind five.

Offline heywood

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Re: Catholic Priest records
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 04 September 18 12:12 BST (UK) »
I am not thinking there is any connection here but the priest who married James and Mary Conlan/Conlon was a Fr Conlan. Perhaps the story of the relative came from there.

The civil registers do seem to have been completed a few months later- that page and others and the fatherís name may just have been an error. Maryís father was also Patrick.
The Sea Captain though is a different matter. It seems difficult to mix that occupation with a labourer unless Edward had a job at sea for a while.
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Offline pet50ite

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Re: Catholic Priest records
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 04 September 18 15:08 BST (UK) »
Wexflyer,
The marriage registration say James' father was Patrick but the actual church records 4/5 months earlier say his dad was Edward. The researcher and various people who have helped me on Rootschat are of the opinion that as the civil records are copied from church records (and there is such a time gap) that the church records are more likely to be accurate.
You are correct about the dearth of records in 1820s. However we do know that Catherine came from Wexford as noted on the 1901 census I mentioned.
As to the family stories. I live in England but a lot of my many cousins live in Ireland and had more access to granny's stories.  The two main ones being that her dad (James Sinnott) or grandfather (Edward) was a sailor. I have found no evidence of that. The other story that her dad or grandfather was one of 7 sons, 5 of whom were priests.
When I wrote originally in 2011/12 it was to ask about the sailor aspect. This thread was about the Catholic priest aspect.

Culbaire.
Thank you so much for checking the book for me. That will save a trip to the library.

Heywood.
It is entirely possible the story of the  Priest relative came from the Fr Conlon marrying James/Mary Conlon. Yet another avenue for me to look at. I think I will wait until my next holiday from work to try and process all this as I do have a fair amount on the Conlons to wade through.
As I mentioned to Wexflyer, both the researcher and previous helpers on Rootschat were of the opinion that the church wedding details for James wedding are more likely to be correct than the civil registration many months later.
cowan, sinnott, duffy, addi, conlon, halpin, (dublin) dowling, mcdonald, donnelly (dublin, newcastle upon tyne and tyrone)

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Catholic Priest records
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 04 September 18 21:16 BST (UK) »
Wexflyer,
The marriage registration say James' father was Patrick but the actual church records 4/5 months earlier say his dad was Edward. The researcher and various people who have helped me on Rootschat are of the opinion that as the civil records are copied from church records (and there is such a time gap) that the church records are more likely to be accurate.
You are correct about the dearth of records in 1820s. However we do know that Catherine came from Wexford as noted on the 1901 census I mentioned.
As to the family stories. I live in England but a lot of my many cousins live in Ireland and had more access to granny's stories.  The two main ones being that her dad (James Sinnott) or grandfather (Edward) was a sailor. I have found no evidence of that. The other story that her dad or grandfather was one of 7 sons, 5 of whom were priests.
When I wrote originally in 2011/12 it was to ask about the sailor aspect. This thread was about the Catholic priest aspect.

I have to disagree that the civil registration was simply copied from the church records 5 months later. The civil registration has to be personally signed by the parties, the witnesses, and the priest. That was and is required for the marriage to be valid! If you look at the record online, it is clear that what is shown is the GRO copy, not the original registration. None of the signature entries are originals. [This is true of all the GRO records - they are all copies, and not originals].   There is somewhere the actual original registration.

As for the sailor aspect, I would repeat that if there is truth in this - and the marriage registration says it is true!  - then it would strongly point away from Ballyoughter for the Sinnotts.
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens; CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter; COSGRAVE Castlebridge; CULLEN Lady's Island; CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook; DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack; FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown; HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wexford; McGILL Litter; MORRIS Forth Commons; PIERCE Lady's Island; POTTS Bennettstown; REDMOND Ballygarrett; ROCHEx2 Wexford; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit; SHERIDAN Monadurtlow; SINNOTT Wexford; SMYTH Gerry/Oulart; WALSH Kilrane/Wexford

Offline pet50ite

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Re: Catholic Priest records
« Reply #33 on: Wednesday 05 September 18 06:29 BST (UK) »
I will go back in the records and check the Patrick Sinnott possibility when I have some spare time. When we first got the GRO copy, many years ago, I did look for suitable Patrick Sinnott records and found none, but there have been loads more records made available since then.
I am still leaning towards Edward as James's father because on his prison record his address is 6 Wellesley Place (and generations of our family lived there until the 1960s) but under "where born" he put Grand Canal Street. On Edward Sinnott's death registration his address is Grand Canal Street
district. Also, on my granny's baptism, one of the sponsors is Richard Sinnott. In the grave with Edward Sinnott is a Richard Sinnott, of a similar generation to James.
None of the above is conclusive, obviously, but I will be checking the Patrick angle to make sure.
cowan, sinnott, duffy, addi, conlon, halpin, (dublin) dowling, mcdonald, donnelly (dublin, newcastle upon tyne and tyrone)

Offline Wexflyer

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Re: Catholic Priest records
« Reply #34 on: Wednesday 05 September 18 07:27 BST (UK) »

Just to say that I was originally a bit sceptical about the name, but with the additional details you posted I would agree that the name is likely to be Edward rather than Patrick (post #27 did not make it clear that Edward was named on the Church marriage register).  That said
- In a case of disagreement like this, I would, if possible try to find the original civil registration record (not the GRO copy).
- Do you know the parish(s) for Grand Canal Street? If I were you I would personally go through the relevant parish registers entry by entry for the years surrounding the likely year of birth for James, +- 5-10 years! I found several of my family with that approach over the years - entries can be misindexed, missing entirely from indexes, misplaced (e.g. marriage recorded in baptism register, etc), mistakes on original entries. Any way of getting it wrong can and does occur. My own experience is that the error rate was high with the original records, and is very, very high with some (but not all) modern indexing efforts. Ancestry is simply dreadful...
BRENNANx2 Davidstown/Taghmon,Ballybrennan; COOPER St.Helens; CREAN Raheennaskeagh/Ballywalter; COSGRAVE Castlebridge; CULLEN Lady's Island; CULLETON Forth Commons;CURRAN Hillbrook; DOYLE Clonee/Tombrack; FOX Knockbrandon; FURLONG Moortown; HAYESx2 Walsheslough/Wexford; McGILL Litter; MORRIS Forth Commons; PIERCE Lady's Island; POTTS Bennettstown; REDMOND Ballygarrett; ROCHEx2 Wexford; ROCHFORD Ballysampson/Ballyhit; SHERIDAN Monadurtlow; SINNOTT Wexford; SMYTH Gerry/Oulart; WALSH Kilrane/Wexford

Offline pet50ite

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Re: Catholic Priest records
« Reply #35 on: Wednesday 05 September 18 18:33 BST (UK) »
Thank you all for your help. I am hoping to have a few free days soon to sift through all the information and suggestions you have given me. It has definitely been food for thought.
cowan, sinnott, duffy, addi, conlon, halpin, (dublin) dowling, mcdonald, donnelly (dublin, newcastle upon tyne and tyrone)