Author Topic: ESSENtially confused over this family!  (Read 540 times)

Offline philipsearching

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ESSENtially confused over this family!
« on: Friday 14 September 18 19:06 BST (UK) »
I'm trying to figure out the ESSEN family and would greatly appreciate a fresh perspective.

1892 birth of Charles Francis ESSEN.  Born Acton or Willesden (as per 1901/1911 censuses)
1911: Living in Duncombe Street, Fenny Stratford, Bucks with family (father a coal hawker)
1912: Marriage Dec qtr Newport Pagnell vol 3a p2016 ESSEN Charles F, HILL Alice R
1913: Birth Jun qtr Newport Pagnell vol 3a p2504 ESSEN Charles E mmn HILL
1919: Birth Dec qtr Orsett, Essex, vol 4a p1260 ESSEN Charles A mmn SMITH
1921: Birth 26 Feb Grays, Essex (reg dist is Orsett) ESSEN George Joseph, father Charles Francis, dock labourer, mother Alice formerly SMITH
1939: Charles F (born 17 Feb 1892, coal hawker) and Alice R (born 5 Dec 1893) living in Bletchley, Bucks - 2 closed records on register at same address.
1940 Charles Arthur ESSEN died age 20 (WW2) - CWGC names parents Charles & Alice
1945: George Joseph ESSEN died (WW2) - reported in local paper with matching address.

I have a problem and can't see an answer:  I haven't found an ESSEN/SMITH marriage so is Alice R HILL the same person as Alice SMITH?

Possible prior marriages for Alice SMITH to Mr HILL are:
Sep 1908,    HILL Frank, Solihull vol 6d p1143
Jun 1910, HILL John Edward, Basford vol 7b p386
Jun 1911 HILL Joseph, Pontefract    vol 9c p223
Dec 1911 HILL Fred, Nottingham vol 7b p553
Jun 1912 HILL Samuel, Stoke T. vol 6b p383

but none of these are anywhere near Buckinghamshire and I haven't found any obvious deaths to match these spouses.

Any ideas?

Philip

Please help me to help you by citing sources for information.

Census information is Crown Copyright http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk



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Offline CaroleW

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Re: ESSENtially confused over this family!
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 15 September 18 00:43 BST (UK) »
I can't see any birth reg for an Alice R Hill in either the Dec qtr 1893 or March qtr 1894 but there are 2 Alice Rose Smith births in March 1894 and an Alice Rosie in Dec 1893

You could check with GRO to see if any were illegitimate births then look for a Smith/Hill marriage in the same RD

I wonder was she born Smith - mum married Hill and she took that name when she married

Have you found her under Hill in 1911



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Offline CaroleW

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Re: ESSENtially confused over this family!
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 15 September 18 00:46 BST (UK) »
Quote
and Alice R (born 5 Dec 1893)

Her death reg has 5.12.1894 - Alice Rose

2 x Alice Rose Smith births March qtr 1895 and nothing under Hill
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Offline philipsearching

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Re: ESSENtially confused over this family!
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 15 September 18 07:53 BST (UK) »
I can't see any birth reg for an Alice R Hill in either the Dec qtr 1893 or March qtr 1894 but there are 2 Alice Rose Smith births in March 1894 and an Alice Rosie in Dec 1893

You could check with GRO to see if any were illegitimate births then look for a Smith/Hill marriage in the same RD

I wonder was she born Smith - mum married Hill and she took that name when she married

Have you found her under Hill in 1911

CaroleW - a thousand thanks!  You have opened up a possibility I hadn't considered.

So, it seems that Alice was born as Alice Rose (or Rosie) SMITH "somewhere in England" and allowing for the 1893 or 1894 uncertainty there's only around half a dozen possibles to work through to explain the HILL surname.

I'm off to check through the 1911 Census, then FreeBMD and GRO with a smile on my face and a song in my heart  :) :) :)

Philip

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Offline CaroleW

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Re: ESSENtially confused over this family!
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 15 September 18 12:03 BST (UK) »
Something I hadnít noticed last night.  Her death is registered twice on the GRO index.  Both Dec qtr 1982 and same ref.  One entry is just Alice and the other Alice Rose

You may have to splash out on the 1912 marriage cert to see if a father is named
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Offline philipsearching

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Re: ESSENtially confused over this family!
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 15 September 18 13:10 BST (UK) »
Five potential births found for Alice Rose (or Rosie) SMITH:
Dec qtr 1893 Portsea mmn PEARSON.  Matches marriage 1893 Portsea John W & Alice E and sibling births - family in Portsea in 1911
Mar 1894 Camberwell mmn BOWN.  Matches marriage Southwark 1891 Walter & Mary and sibling births - family in Camberwell in 1911
Mar 1894 Reading mmn TOTT.  Still looking (possibly 1911 daughter of Elijah & Emma, but can't match mmn))
Mar 1895 Hendon mmn JACKSON.  Still looking.
Mar 1895 Hackney no mmn.  Still looking.

1911 Census: Alice Rose, age 16 born Wexham, Bucks with father John Henry (60 b Warwick) , mother Emma (49 b Luton) and sibs born Wexham living in Slough - looks interesting.


I am wary about buying the 1912 marriage cert as I have seen "imaginary" fathers on some of mine!  But I don't know how else to solve this one.  Without a definite parent's name SMITH (or HILL) is not very traceable.

Philip
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Offline Tickettyboo

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Re: ESSENtially confused over this family!
« Reply #6 on: Saturday 15 September 18 13:46 BST (UK) »
The 1921 birth for George Joseph, as you have the full details I assume you have the cert.
Who registered the birth?

I have seen a few where, despite it being the same mother, the maiden name in the register and therefore on the cert is different (perhaps because she had been married before).

It can depend on what question was asked and who gave the info
 for example -
 Registrar asks for mother's maiden name and is given her birth surname - as the informant is aware of it

Registrar asks what the mother's name was before she married the father - and is given her previous married surname - maybe the informant misunderstood or her previous married name is the only one they were aware of

Expensive to prove in England as you would have to have all the birth certs to see who registered it and what MMN they gave, but my scenario was in Ireland and, bless them,  the birth registers are online for my favourite price of free :-)

Boo

Offline CaroleW

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Re: ESSENtially confused over this family!
« Reply #7 on: Saturday 15 September 18 14:07 BST (UK) »
I considered whether she was previously a Smith married to a Hill then widowed but she was only 18 or 19 in 1912. (depending which birthyear is correct) which makes it less likely.

There are 3 Alice Smith marriages with a male Hill on the same page between 1909 - 1911 none in Bucks
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Offline Tickettyboo

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Re: ESSENtially confused over this family!
« Reply #8 on: Saturday 15 September 18 14:14 BST (UK) »
I considered whether she was previously a Smith married to a Hill then widowed but she was only 18 or 19 in 1912. (depending which birthyear is correct) which makes it less likely.

There are 3 Alice Smith marriages with a male Hill on the same page between 1909 - 1911 none in Bucks

Sorry, I wasn't inferring she had been married before, but as it seems highly possible that she had a birth surname and another by which she was known prior to her marriage, the same scenario about what question was asked and what the person who supplied the answer actually knew about, would apply.

Especially as the birth registration in 1921 has a MMN which seems to be a contender for the mother's birth name.
If she registered the birth herself  then I'd say it lent a bit of weight to the theory that Alice Smith is the same person as Alice Hill. Others ( a neighbour, etc) may not have been aware of her birth surname and may have given the surname Hill?

Boo