Author Topic: Analyzing British / Irish ancestors in a Native family  (Read 1601 times)

Offline RedMystic

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,134
  • Helen Cheyne (1863-1952)
    • View Profile
Analyzing British / Irish ancestors in a Native family
« on: Monday 24 September 18 18:23 BST (UK) »
Hi Chatters. I need some DNA help please.

I am looking at the DNA results for Fred H (I am using an initial only as the man was born in 1922 and is still alive).

His maternal line is Alaska native with no suggestion of any white ancestors. His DNA shows him as 36% native (North American & Andean). His paternal line has two known white ancestors.

DNA tester: Fred H b1922
Fred's father: George H Jr b1881 (father white / mother 1/2 native)
George H Jr's mother: Marg b1861 (1/2 native / 1/2 white, possibly Jewish)
George H Jr's father: George H Sr birth year & ethnicity unknown died after 1886 (white)

I have 2 conundrums.

- Is Fred H's great grandfather (father of Marg) Jewish as oral history cites; if not can I discern what his ethnicity was?

- Is it logical to deduce that Fred's paternal grandfather (George H Sr) was Irish given that Fred is 41% Irish and only 1 generation removed from Fred?


Conundrum 1: Background re Fred's great grandfather

Oral history says Fred's great grandfather (father of Marg) was a Jewish man named Levy. Margaret's native uncles came for her about 1870 and took her home from a Hudson's Bay fort to Alaska when her native mother died. It further reflects that two of her white uncles came for her to bring her back to the family, and indeed, two Levy "uncles" are in the next village to her in the 1900 Alaska census (though she would have been 40 years old at the time, so much too old to be returned to the white family.)

I see no indication of any Jewish ancestry in Fred's ethnicity analysis though he would only have been separated from his supposed Jewish ancestor by 2 generations. I have the ethnicity description for a young woman 5 generations separated from her Jewish ancestor who is connected through the same native tribe and one of the Levy brothers. She shows 10% Jewish, a strong indicator making me think Fred's should show some Jewish if the oral story is correct.

Conundrum 2: Background re George H Sr

Fred's paternal grandfather is known to have been white. He is said to be George H and, indeed, there was a white man of that name who started a cannery in the vicinity in Alaska in the early 1870s. While no census records exist for the area until 1900, I have tracked George H Sr though a number of transactions with San Francisco business men & last identify him in a village in Alaska an 1886 newspaper article which reflects he is an "old-timer" (possibly indicting age 60 or more)

While George H Sr was still in the area, Fred's grandmother, Marg started having children with a native man by 1884.

I have been unable to identify any white people of DNA matches with the surname H, though many of the white people who went north to Alaska in that time period were "running" from something so H may have been an assumed name.

Fred's 41% Irish ethnicity (including 497 matches to Galway, Ireland) lead me to think that Fred's paternal grandfather was an Irish man, perhaps George H Sr (if he was living under an assumed name) OR another Irishman.

Are these two conclusions reasonable, and/or are there other possible conclusions that could be reached about Fred's two white ancestors given the ethnicity analysis?
MACDONALD of Benbecula, Scotland, Earlswood/Wapella Sask
BAIN of Aberdeenshire, Trafford district, Red Jacket and Moosomin, Sask
CHEYNE of Aberdeenshire & Trafford district, Sask
FISHER of Yorkshire, Ontario & Saskatchewan
INKSTER of Shetland, Edinburgh, Sask and BC
GAUNT of Yorkshire, Kent, BC & Australia
KINCH of Ireland, PEI, Ab, Sask
CORCORAN of Ireland, PEI & Sask
GOTZ / GOETZ of Soufflenheim, Alsace & Ont
MITTELHAUSSER of Soufflenheim, Alsace
MULLER or MILLER of Drusenheim, Alsace & Ont

Offline sugarfizzle

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,515
    • View Profile
Re: Analyzing British / Irish ancestors in a Native family
« Reply #1 on: Monday 24 September 18 21:15 BST (UK) »

- Is Fred H's great grandfather (father of Marg) Jewish as oral history cites; if not can I discern what his ethnicity was?

- Is it logical to deduce that Fred's paternal grandfather (George H Sr) was Irish given that Fred is 41% Irish and only 1 generation removed from Fred?

Are these two conclusions reasonable, and/or are there other possible conclusions that could be reached about Fred's two white ancestors given the ethnicity analysis?

Read previous threads re ethnicity.

It is not possible to make the two conclusions and there are other possible conclusions that could be reached.

Go with your paper trail.

Regards Margaret
STEER, mainly Surrey, Kent; PINNOCKS/HAINES, Gosport, Hants; BARKER, mainly Broadwater, Sussex; Gosport, Hampshire; LAVERSUCH, Micheldever, Hampshire; WESTALL, London, Reading, Berks; HYDE, Croydon, Surrey; BRIGDEN, Hadlow, Kent and London; TUTHILL/STEPHENS, London
WILKINSON, Leeds, Yorkshire and Liverpool; WILLIAMSON, Liverpool; BEARE, Yeovil, Somerset; ALLEN, Kent and London; GORST, Liverpool; HOYLE, mainly Leeds, Yorkshire

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.go

Offline RedMystic

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,134
  • Helen Cheyne (1863-1952)
    • View Profile
Re: Analyzing British / Irish ancestors in a Native family
« Reply #2 on: Monday 24 September 18 21:21 BST (UK) »
The problem is that there is NO paper trail in Alaska in that time period.

Native people weren't considered citizens & didn't document such things and the first surviving census is 1900.
MACDONALD of Benbecula, Scotland, Earlswood/Wapella Sask
BAIN of Aberdeenshire, Trafford district, Red Jacket and Moosomin, Sask
CHEYNE of Aberdeenshire & Trafford district, Sask
FISHER of Yorkshire, Ontario & Saskatchewan
INKSTER of Shetland, Edinburgh, Sask and BC
GAUNT of Yorkshire, Kent, BC & Australia
KINCH of Ireland, PEI, Ab, Sask
CORCORAN of Ireland, PEI & Sask
GOTZ / GOETZ of Soufflenheim, Alsace & Ont
MITTELHAUSSER of Soufflenheim, Alsace
MULLER or MILLER of Drusenheim, Alsace & Ont

Offline RedMystic

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,134
  • Helen Cheyne (1863-1952)
    • View Profile
Re: Analyzing British / Irish ancestors in a Native family
« Reply #3 on: Monday 24 September 18 21:42 BST (UK) »
I forgot to add a thank you for your response Margaret. :)

Here is some background on Alaska records.

For white people, births & death records by government begin in 1913 but even those are hit & miss. Marriage records begin in 1930.

Alaska natives didn't become citizens until 1924. As a result, governmental record keeping for their BMDs didn't exist for them until after that.


MACDONALD of Benbecula, Scotland, Earlswood/Wapella Sask
BAIN of Aberdeenshire, Trafford district, Red Jacket and Moosomin, Sask
CHEYNE of Aberdeenshire & Trafford district, Sask
FISHER of Yorkshire, Ontario & Saskatchewan
INKSTER of Shetland, Edinburgh, Sask and BC
GAUNT of Yorkshire, Kent, BC & Australia
KINCH of Ireland, PEI, Ab, Sask
CORCORAN of Ireland, PEI & Sask
GOTZ / GOETZ of Soufflenheim, Alsace & Ont
MITTELHAUSSER of Soufflenheim, Alsace
MULLER or MILLER of Drusenheim, Alsace & Ont


Offline sugarfizzle

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,515
    • View Profile
Re: Analyzing British / Irish ancestors in a Native family
« Reply #4 on: Monday 24 September 18 22:03 BST (UK) »
RedMystic, you still can't make any assumptions from ethnicity results. They still remain largely inaccurate, might improve further over time.

My latest DNA ethnicity update appears to be more accurate than the previous one, but is  not as specific as yours.

My husband's latest update appears a lot less accurate. He is now 43% Irish and Scottish, indicating that one of his parents or perhaps grandparents was Irish or Scottish. No Scottish at all and the only Irish I have found so far is his great grandfather, estimate would be maximum 12.5%.

If you have no paper trail from this time frame your matches from the same area will presumably also have no paper trail, and it may be very difficult to get very far.

Regards Margaret

STEER, mainly Surrey, Kent; PINNOCKS/HAINES, Gosport, Hants; BARKER, mainly Broadwater, Sussex; Gosport, Hampshire; LAVERSUCH, Micheldever, Hampshire; WESTALL, London, Reading, Berks; HYDE, Croydon, Surrey; BRIGDEN, Hadlow, Kent and London; TUTHILL/STEPHENS, London
WILKINSON, Leeds, Yorkshire and Liverpool; WILLIAMSON, Liverpool; BEARE, Yeovil, Somerset; ALLEN, Kent and London; GORST, Liverpool; HOYLE, mainly Leeds, Yorkshire

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.go

Offline RedMystic

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,134
  • Helen Cheyne (1863-1952)
    • View Profile
Re: Analyzing British / Irish ancestors in a Native family
« Reply #5 on: Monday 24 September 18 22:12 BST (UK) »
Thank you Margaret. I know I was hoping for a miracle.  :P

I'm reasonably confident that there's no Jewish showing up in his mix, particularly as I have DNA from another descendant who connects to the Levy family.

It's so frustrating. This man is 96 years old and would dearly like to know the white part of his ethnicity before he dies. Times is not on my side. ::)

Thanks again for weighing in.
MACDONALD of Benbecula, Scotland, Earlswood/Wapella Sask
BAIN of Aberdeenshire, Trafford district, Red Jacket and Moosomin, Sask
CHEYNE of Aberdeenshire & Trafford district, Sask
FISHER of Yorkshire, Ontario & Saskatchewan
INKSTER of Shetland, Edinburgh, Sask and BC
GAUNT of Yorkshire, Kent, BC & Australia
KINCH of Ireland, PEI, Ab, Sask
CORCORAN of Ireland, PEI & Sask
GOTZ / GOETZ of Soufflenheim, Alsace & Ont
MITTELHAUSSER of Soufflenheim, Alsace
MULLER or MILLER of Drusenheim, Alsace & Ont

Offline Carmella

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 110
  • nsus information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: Analyzing British / Irish ancestors in a Native family
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 25 September 18 16:32 BST (UK) »
Hi,

Another option:

If you have the funds, it is worth considering Y-DNA testing for Fred (or any of Fred's brothers or son's, if he has any).

This would test Fred's father, Grandfather, Gt Grandfather etc etc etc line.
So it only tests the direct paternal line from Fred going back in time.

As a result of Y-DNA testing a haplogroup is assigned (like a tribe or clan). From that you can join the relevant haplogroup projects & get advice on the geographical origins of your haplogroup.


C

Offline RedMystic

  • RootsChat Aristocrat
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,134
  • Helen Cheyne (1863-1952)
    • View Profile
Re: Analyzing British / Irish ancestors in a Native family
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 25 September 18 17:04 BST (UK) »
Thank you Carmella. That is helpful. I'll see if Fred is up to doing another test. At 96, he is the last of his siblings. He does have several sons.
MACDONALD of Benbecula, Scotland, Earlswood/Wapella Sask
BAIN of Aberdeenshire, Trafford district, Red Jacket and Moosomin, Sask
CHEYNE of Aberdeenshire & Trafford district, Sask
FISHER of Yorkshire, Ontario & Saskatchewan
INKSTER of Shetland, Edinburgh, Sask and BC
GAUNT of Yorkshire, Kent, BC & Australia
KINCH of Ireland, PEI, Ab, Sask
CORCORAN of Ireland, PEI & Sask
GOTZ / GOETZ of Soufflenheim, Alsace & Ont
MITTELHAUSSER of Soufflenheim, Alsace
MULLER or MILLER of Drusenheim, Alsace & Ont

Offline diplodicus

  • RootsChat Veteran
  • *****
  • Posts: 686
  • Remember, no great adventure started with salad.
    • View Profile
Re: Analyzing British / Irish ancestors in a Native family
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 26 September 18 16:51 BST (UK) »
Whilst Y-DNA testing does explore a direct paternal line, I am not confident that it would be worth the investment (although more than happy to be proven wrong... again ???). Any DNA match relies on being lucky enough to have close ancestors who have also tested. This is more likely for autosomal DNA which is relatively inexpensive and is where most of the genealogical "action" takes place.

I took FTDNA's Y111 test that tells me I am haplogroup R-M269 as are most north-west Europeans. I have no matches at the 111 marker level and only three at the 67 marker level. If I want anything more specific, I will have to invest more to drill down into the sub-clades of R-M269 where the chance of finding anyone else who has submitted their DNA is remote.

Y-DNA is great when you can test people whom you suspect of being connected but not sure how or how closely. Sons cannot help; they have their father's Y-DNA.

I think uploading to gedmatch and seeing if you can find any close autosomal matches is a better (and quicker) path in your circumstances.
Thomas, Davies, Jones, Walters, Daniel in Carmarthenshire and Ceredigion. That should narrow it down a bit!
Vincent: Fressingfield, Suffolk, Stockton & Sunderland.
Murtha/Murtaugh: Dundalk & Sunderland
Ingram: Cairnie by Huntly, Scotland then Abergavenny, Monmouthshire.
Bardouleau: London - in memory of my stepmother Annie Rose née Bardouleau who put up with a lot from me.
gedmatch.com A006809
Kit uploaded to familytreedna.com B171041
Y-DNA R-M269 & mtDNA U5b1f