Traveller Marriage Question

[River Tyne Lass]

I have a branch on my family tree who were Irish travelers who came to England and travelled around Northumberland and Durham.  Eventually, my bloodline ancestors settled in this area when they became coal miners.

My Great x 2 Grandparents were called James Conroy and Elizabeth Fitzpatrick.  I have a copy of what I believe is their marriage certificate.  This indicates that their marriage which was in 1859 at the RC Church in Stella, Durham would have taken place ten years after the birth of their first child.

I saw a post on RootsChat recently from someone who wrote that travelers had their own marriages rather than legal ones.  Do you think that it might be possible that these ancestors of mine may have had a previous traveler marriage ceremony?  What might this involve?  How would it be carried out?  Would there be any record of such a marriage?

I will be very grateful for any information.

[greenpaula]

Hi
The Irish travellers did have a form of marriage, whereby they were promised to each as young children and did make vows in front of their community when they came of age, although, being RC, families usually insisted they were married by a priest.
I doubt you will find any hard evidence of a previous traveller marriage ceremony, but your dates raise other questions. I'm wondering when they left Ireland. Their first child was born in 1849, toward the end of the Irish famine. Maybe they left Ireland for England and rather than Elizabeth be regarded as a single woman they told everyone they were married when they arrived in England. Have you found them in the 1851 census living in England,and/or the place of birth of their first child?
It would also be useful to check other childrens baptism records - if they weren't married and this was known in the community the priest would baptise the children under the mother's name.

[River Tyne Lass]

Thanks for this post greenpaula.  That is interesting children could be betrothed.  Although I suppose marriages could take place much earlier then.  It was actually James Father, also a James who I believe originally came from Ireland.  Some census record that my ancestor James was born in Ireland.

James and Elizabeth's first child was baptised in 1847 so this will be twelve years before their marriage.  Sorry I got confused with counting.  James had a sister Ann.  She was baptised at an Anglican Church at Chatton in 1834 so I know they were over here by then.  In her baptism I remember her Father (my Great x 3 bloodline ancestor) was described as a 'Travelling besom maker from Lockgilley, Ireland'.  I think this would have really referred to Loughgilley in Ireland.  An older son who died as a baby I believe is the one (Joseph Conroy) who is buried at St Andrew in Hartburn, Northumberland.  In the register James (Snr) is described as a poor Irish traveller.

I don't know why they kept changing between RC and Anglican Churches as I have found.

Elizabeth has sometimes shown as having been born in Edinburgh, Scotland on the census.

All James and Elizabeth's children except one was baptised as Conroy.  My ancestors appear to have an alias 'Gilroy' whether by accident or design.  This was mentioned in a newspaper.  One of their sons John was baptised as Gilroy. 

[Maiden Stone]

River Tyne Lass re reply #2.

Childhood betrothals didn't just happen in traveller families. Many Irish marriages were arranged. Oral history in one line of my family is of a couple who eloped to England because one of them was promised to someone in Ireland. I can't find their marriage. This couple were having children in England 1860s-1870s. One child, possibly eldest son was born in Newcastle. His elder sister and all younger siblings were Lancashire-born. Their father had relatives in the Lancashire town where the family settled.
 Legal age of marriage was 12 for girls and 14 for boys. Few would have married so young. Average age of marriage increased in post-Famine Ireland.

Conditions in Ireland were bad in 1830s prompting many to go to England in search of work. Some work was seasonal and some Irish would return home each year. Vagrant passes in Lancashire Archives until 1830s include many for Irish people travelling to Liverpool to board ship for Ireland.

Re baptism at an Anglican church at Chatton. Was there a convenient R.C. church in 1834?  Perhaps they took the baby to the nearest church.

[River Tyne Lass]

Thanks for this post Maiden Stone which is very informative.  In my research I have tracked this family and my! how they seemed to gad about all over Northumberland.  I have never been able to find out what happened to James Conroy (Snr) who married Mary Malloy.  I suppose he may have returned to Ireland and died there. Last seen in Morpeth in 1851. 

His son James who married Elizabeth Fitzpatrick died in the 1870s in Durham.  Mary Conroy nee Malloy is buried at St Mary in Morpeth.

This branch of my family tree really seemed to chop and change between RC and Anglican and denominations although RC.  For example, Ann who was baptised at Chatton in an Anglican Church had her own daughter baptised at an RC Church at Cheeseburn Grange then married the father several years later at an Anglican Church in Hexham.  James and Elizabeth's eldest child was baptised at an RC Church but also married in an Anglican Church in Hexham. 

In Ann's baptism it is recorded that her Father James was a travelling besom maker from Lock Gilley, Ireland.  It has been suggested to me that this would have really been Loughgilley in Ireland.  This sounds plausible.

Thanks again for your information - I do appreciate this that you and greenpaula have provided.

[Maiden Stone]

Don't put too much store by the marriages in Anglican churches. One reason for Catholics to marry in C. of E. after 1837 was cost. If they married in a Catholic church there were 2 sets of fees to pay, to church and to registrar. Marrying in C. of E. meant paying only the vicar.
Another reason may have been a shortage of priests. I have no particular evidence for this theory. Priests in cities and large industrial towns were overworked because of the Irish influx. Masses were held in schools, pubs or private houses in some areas until money was raised to build a church.
I've heard (probably on RootsChat) but again have no proof, that some Catholics married in C. of E. for the sake of having a document which could be shown to a prospective Protestant employer to conceal their Catholicism. Even that some married Irish couples underwent a second Anglican ceremony for this purpose.
A recent enquiry on RootsChat concerned an Irish family in Manchester. Marriage was in the cathedral (C. of E.) c1841 although it was a Catholic family. I think they were hawkers. I've come across other R.C. couples marrying at M/c Cathedral. It was cheap. Several couples married in 1 ceremony. Similar weddings happened in parish churches of some large towns.
A few of my English R.C. ancestors married in Anglican churches mid-late 19th century. One happened in the place described as "the most Catholic town in the most Catholic county of England" . The bride was eldest of many daughters of a labourer; it was noted on baptisms of his elder children that he was Protestant, although he had a famous R.C. surname. The others were "mixed " marriages, 2 of them of widowers to mature widows, so no children resulting. Bridegroom in one marriage belonged to a family which had been stalwarts of the Catholic Church for the previous 200 years. A priest-cousin ("The Monseigneur") was influential in the English Catholic Church at the time my newly bereaved 2xGGF acquired a stepmother for his 7 children.

All these marriages would have been recognised by the Catholic Church as valid. A code of marriage law was issued by the Vatican in 16th century requiring a marriage to take place before a parish priest or his representative + 2 witnesses. This was an effort to prevent clandestine marriages, e.g. eloping with an heiress or secret ones like Romeo & Juliet. The code didn't apply to Britain, Ireland or many other countries. An 18thC pope decreed that a marriage was valid if it was conducted according to the law of each country. The Catholic code of marriage was enforced in England in 1909 when it was promulgated worldwide. Until then it was the decision of church hierarchy in each country or even individual bishops whether to adopt the code. The code was amended in 1980s.

NB Civil law relating to marriage in Ireland was different to the law in England for much of 19th century.

[River Tyne Lass]

Thanks for this Maiden Stone.  I think this definitely sounds plausible that some Catholics may have married in Anglican Churches to save money.  I think my travelling ancestors wouldn't have had a great deal of money.  Large families and having to get by on what they could sell or with what casual work could be picked up.  I have seen various things recorded against their names besom maker; earthenware dealer; basket maker and jobbing labourer.

I have also come across other Catholic families around that time occasionally going to Anglican Churches too.

Your post has been very helpful and I do appreciate this.  many thanks for taking the time to send me all this information.