Author Topic: Missing the obvious or not?  (Read 6969 times)

Offline Horsley2016

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Missing the obvious or not?
« on: Wednesday 10 October 18 14:29 BST (UK) »
Dear all.

Trying to find the birth cert. details of one James Kennedy born either 1876 (according to 2 Census's) or 1877 (if the age listed on his death cert. is correct at 55 when died 22.05.1932.) Born Liverpool and highly likely around the Scotland Road area.

His Father is also a James Kennedy, born circa 1851 but I have no Mother details and there's a fair few options given the name Kennedy! I can find 6 possible matches on GRO for birth between 1876 - 1877 registered either West Derby & Toxteth (districts of Liverpool) or simply under 'Liverpool.'

On his marriage certificate (RC) he has a witness of Thomas Kennedy who I assumed may be his brother. I was led down the line of an Ellen Kennedy then being his Mother (through Census records etc) but then hit a brick wall with that thread as it appeared James would still be living at home, listed as single and working not as a Ships Scaler (as he seems to have done most his life) after his date of marriage!! Lesson learned!

Am I going to have to work through ordering 6 birth certificates? Is there anyway of narrowing this through the Father's name or even where likely a birth in the Scotland Road area would be registered then ? West Derby or 'Liverpool?'

Any thoughts on this would, as always, be most welcome. There are a lot of James Kennedy's in the family and I'm confused at best of times!!! ::)

Thanks Mx

Online ShaunJ

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Re: Missing the obvious or not?
« Reply #1 on: Wednesday 10 October 18 14:48 BST (UK) »
When and where was he married? Have you found the RC marriage record (they often give the mothers' maiden names)?

Which are the census records that you are certain about? Can you give the addresses?

What was his father's occupation?

In the RC baptisms there's Jacobus, filius Jacobi & Mariae Kennedy (mmn Smith) at Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette in 1876. A possibility.

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Offline Horsley2016

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Re: Missing the obvious or not?
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 10 October 18 15:09 BST (UK) »

Hi Shaun,

Thanks very much for replying. The Nee Smith is a distinct possibility. I've looked at so many Census records I can't remember which are the ones with Ellen Kennedy as the Mother that lead to a clash but he marries Julia McCarthy in 27.feb.1897 at St Anthonys. His Father is listed as living at 21 Woodstock Street.In 1901 our man is in Virgil Street, 1911 Boundary Street married to Julia and working as the consistently mentioned 'Ships Scaler.' He also appears on his sons marriage cert. as a Ships Scaler too.

The Ellen Kennedy line I made a mistake with seems to have the Father and then son as carriage drivers then proprietors. The whole family seem to have been dockers / ship workers/ seamen so it's out of line for this too (although there is a listed sibling Thomas Kennedy on this line that ties in with the marriage witness.)

Regrettably the cert. info gives little away other than he was living in Woodstock Road and this Thomas Kennedy the witness living in Netherfield Road.

Cant find his Fathers occupation but the apple doesn't seem to fall far from the tree in this side of the family so assuming labourer/docker.

The maiden name possibilties I've come up with are a Connor/Jones/McGinty/Smith/Edwards/Pake ranging from 1876-1877. Be useful to know where Scotland Road residents would have registered the births as that may be able to eliminate 3 records!


Thanks for your thoughts Shaun, much appreciated

M




Offline rosie99

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Re: Missing the obvious or not?
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 10 October 18 15:18 BST (UK) »
In the RC baptisms there's Jacobus, filius Jacobi & Mariae Kennedy (mmn Smith) at Our Lady of Reconciliation de La Salette in 1876. A possibility.

Possible birth registration for that baptism
KENNEDY, JAMES       mmn SMITH     
1876  Sept Quarter in LIVERPOOL  Volume 08B  Page 66
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Offline candrjm

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Re: Missing the obvious or not?
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 10 October 18 15:31 BST (UK) »
possible 1881 census name recorded as Kenneday??

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:Q27L-M86Q


Possible marriage:

Marriages Sep 1874 

Kennedy    James         Liverpool    8b   453    
Smith    Mary Ann         Liverpool    8b   453


Childrens birth registrations:

KENNEDY, JAMES        SMITH      
GRO Reference: 1876  S Quarter in LIVERPOOL  Volume 08B  Page 6

KENNEDY, CHARLES        SMITH      
GRO Reference: 1878  D Quarter in LIVERPOOL  Volume 08B  Page 17

KENNEDY, WILLIAM        SMITH      
GRO Reference: 1880  D Quarter in LIVERPOOL  Volume 08B  Page 57

Online ShaunJ

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Re: Missing the obvious or not?
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 10 October 18 19:45 BST (UK) »
Quote
born either 1876 (according to 2 Census's) or 1877 (if the age listed on his death cert. is correct at 55 when died 22.05.1932

He's 25 in 1901 and 35 in 1911 so probably born between early April 1875 and early April 1876

I have seen newspaper reports from August 1897 of a 22 year old James Kennedy, a scaler, being sentenced to 5 years penal servitude at Liverpool Assizes for wounding one John Nolan. However I'm not seeing this conviction in the criminal records. And your man was at home in the 1901 census so either it wasn't him or the conviction was overturned.
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Offline mckha489

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Re: Missing the obvious or not?
« Reply #6 on: Wednesday 10 October 18 20:39 BST (UK) »


Be useful to know where Scotland Road residents would have registered the births as that may be able to eliminate 3 records!


I don't know if this is helpful or not!  But

in 1881 in Scotland Road is a family named REGAN with a daughter Clara born 1878. Seems an uncommon enough name - so looked in GRO her birth was registered at West Derby and Toxteth Park

but her sister Annie was registered in 1876 and a son Nathan (indexed as Mathew on census)  in 1881 both at Liverpool!!!

I think I would look at the Liverpool registrations first.

There is this - I don't know quite how to interpret it
LIVERPOOL REGISTRATION DISTRICT

Registration County : Lancashire (1837-1934 and 1969-74), Merseyside (from 1974).
Created : 1.7.1837.
Abolished : 1.10.1934 (to become part of Liverpool South registration district).
Re-created : 1.10.1969 (out of Liverpool North and Liverpool South registration districts).
Sub-districts : Abercromby, Broadgreen, Dale Street, Edge Hill, Exchange, Fazakerley, Howard Street, Islington, Liverpool, Mount Pleasant, St. George, St. Martin, St. Thomas, Scotland, Sefton Park, Toxteth Park, Toxteth Park Central, Toxteth Park East, Toxteth Park North, Toxteth Park North West, Toxteth Park South, Toxteth Park South West, Toxteth Park, Wavertree, Woolton
GRO volumes : XX (1837-51), 8b (1852-1934), 10D (1969-74), 36 (1974-92).
Registers currently held at : Liverpool.

https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/liverpool.html


Offline Blue70

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Re: Missing the obvious or not?
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 11 October 18 00:27 BST (UK) »
Families moved about a lot in those days. A family could be living off Scotland Road then move into an adjacent district such as Everton or Kirkdale or further away to Bootle. Scotland Road was in Liverpool district, Everton, Kirkdale and Bootle came under West Derby. Have a look at this 1900 map. North Scotland, South Scotland, Vauxhall and St. Anne's were in Liverpool district, Sandhills, Kirkdale, St. Domingo, Netherfield and Everton were in West derby district:-

http://www.liverpoolpictorial.co.uk/liverpool_1900/


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Offline Horsley2016

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Re: Missing the obvious or not?
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 11 October 18 08:36 BST (UK) »
Dear all,

Thank you so much for the help. That 1900 map is amazing! Shaun J, I had seen a link of that newspaper report via ancestry and it's sitting there while I decide if it was him or not! As you say, in 1901 he was home so either not him, or the conviction was overturned. Did they get let out for good behaviour back then? Also, would it not have been impossible for him to get work after that?

I also hadn't appreciated the birth could be in 1875 - as you say, given the Census info he is most likely to have been born early 1875 - early 1876. I had simply taken 55 off his date of death as per the death certificate and landed at 1877 for his birth! I haven't even searched on 1875 births which I'm about to do!!! **** Update having done so via GRO I can't see any JK births in Liverpool or West Derby for all of 1875****

***Further info*** Given there was nothing registered 1875, 1876 narrows it to:
MQ West Derby 8B 416 CONNOR
JQ West Derby 8B 338 JONES
SQ West Derby 8B 443 MCGINTY (which I think, though not sure, is the Ellen Kennedy line that doesn't add up.)

Then I have
SQ Liverpool SQ 8B 66 SMITH
SQ Liverpool 8B 79 EDWARDS

And in 1877 MQ Liverpool 8B 96 PAKE

Mx