Author Topic: Smiths please help link these different families that are both dna connected  (Read 1784 times)

Offline iforani

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 :) Hi I am hoping that rootschat experts may help me unravel a brick wall that is puzzling me even moreso now that Mum's dna test results add new people to the mix.
My mother's maternal grandmother was born supposedly as Mary Ann Smith in 1868 in Sydney yet as I have posted elsewhere previously she used the alias of Muriel Annie (Stanley) when she married. Her parents were supposedly Eliza Emma Cooper and William Charles (or Peter) Smith (born 1845 in Qld died 1912 at Granville); William gave his name on most of the birth certificates as William Charles and his son was named Charles William yet when he died his name was given as William Peter Smith. I have looked far and wide but have found no record of his birth or clues to his parents (none given by his certificates apart from the 1845 guestimate of birth date and place of birth as Brisbane).

Mum has close dna links to the Cooper family and there are close physical resemblances to the Cooper family. Strangely though the dna match is higher to Mum's Cooper (great grandmother's siblings descendants) than to her own grandmother's siblings descendants. This lead me to suspect that Mum's grandmother, being the eldest child, may have been only a half sibling to her siblings (different mother or father), however both the Smith and Cooper families are dna connected.
I believed that I had discovered the 4th cousin Smith link when a granddaughter of a Daisy Smith (born 1889, died 1950 at Warwick, parents Thomas Cobham Russell Smith born 1861 died 1928 Qld and Marian Wright born 1862 died 1932 Mama Creek, Qld, Thomas Cobham Russell Smith's parents being Thomas Smith born 1819 Middlesex, died 1891 Qld and Hannah/Anna Russell, Marian Wright's parents being Thomas and Ann Wright. This person dna matches to Mum's grandmother's siblings' descendants as well which validates the Smith link. The other names mentioned don't appear in Mum's family. HOWEVER another match emerged of a man who was a 4th cousin and he is descended from a Mary Ann Smith (died 1874 in Qld) wife of a Thomas Forder. She was a sister of William Benjamin Smith (born 1845 died 1928 at Wee Waa, NSW). Their parents were Thomas Smith born supposedly 1808 and Mary Ann Nelson born about 1816.

Now I have several theories, one possibility is that the two Thomas Smiths are the same person (bigamously married to Mary Ann Nelson and Anna Russell). Another is that a male Cooper (sibling of Eliza Emma Cooper had a child with Mary Ann Smith who was a sibling of William Benjamin Smith and that this child was adopted by Eliza Emma and William Charles Smith. Another was that either a sister of Eliza's or Eliza herself became pregnant to William Benjamin Smith who may have been a cousin of William Charles Smith. The latter is my preferred theory for the following reasons. When mum's great grandparents got married they were married at Wee Waa (yet she lived at Parramatta), why travel all this way out west? Also William Benjamin Smith lived at Narrabri then at Wee Waa and on one occasion he was recorded in a census as living in the same street (possibly visiting same house) in Parramatta as William Charles and Eliza Smith. He was a grazier when he died (he had married a woman named Mary Agnes Hurley but Mum's grandmother was born before this pair married).
I hope that anyone reading this can unravel the picture that I am trying to paint. I have seen family trees of William Benjamin Smith so I don't need any more details of his family, but I do desperately need help trying to link these two Smith families (and I do believe the links is with the Smiths) that are dna matched. Please help as I am pulling my hair out and have spent hours trying to find a common denominator. Thanks! Deb
McKay (Kildare, Ireland), Aldred (Manchester), Smith, Cooper (Kent), Howlett, Bodill, Atkins (Northamptonshire), Smart (UK, Africa), Brown, Bryant, Dixon, Walton

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Re: Smiths please help link these different families that are both dna connected
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 14 October 18 12:29 BST (UK) »
Hhmm, well you certainly have quite a tangle to sort out here.

If you haven't done so already, I would get a large piece of paper and write down all the people that you have mentioned linking up with the relevant parents, siblings, husbands/wives etc.

If you feel that at the moment you have two Smith families then do two separate trees for them.

There is no clear picture of what certificates you have in relation to all these people.  Have you for example looked for/obtained the marriage certs for Thomas Smith whom you say appears to have married twice, one of the marriages being bigamous?

Are all these Smiths Australia based or did a Smith ancestor arrive there from the UK?

You may wish to consider getting your topic moved to the Australia board.  If you click on the blue Report to Moderator at the bottom right of the conversation box, you can request the Moderator to move it for you.

I don't know enough about Australian genealogy to know what records are available online or offline and where they can be found.    :-\
Ashford: Somerset, London
England: Devon, London, New Zealand
Holdway: Wiltshire
Hooper: Bristol, Somerset
Knowling: Devon, London
Southcott: Devon, China
Strong: Wiltshire
Watson: Cambridgeshire
White: Bristol
Windo - Gloucestershire, Somerset, Wiltshire

Offline iforani

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Re: Smiths please help link these different families that are both dna connected
« Reply #2 on: Monday 15 October 18 00:13 BST (UK) »
Thanks, Girl Guide. It most certainly is a tangled web!! I have certificates for the man named William Charles/Peter Smith including his marriage, death and children's birth certificates but these add no new information as to his parents apart from the fact that he was born about 1845 supposedly in Brisbane, Queensland. I haven't looked for certificates for the Thomas Smiths both of whom supposedly came from the UK. I'll take your advice and move this to the Australia board. Thanks!  :) :) Deb PS I have done two separate trees for them on paper but they are in no way linked (yet I am dna connected to both of them and the link isn't via the partners!!).
McKay (Kildare, Ireland), Aldred (Manchester), Smith, Cooper (Kent), Howlett, Bodill, Atkins (Northamptonshire), Smart (UK, Africa), Brown, Bryant, Dixon, Walton

Offline rosball

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Re: Smiths please help link these different families that are both dna connected
« Reply #3 on: Monday 15 October 18 22:10 BST (UK) »
Hi Deb,
   It's too early in the morning for me to have assimilated all that info (and I have to dash off now)  :)

   If you can find any probates for those who died in NSW then I am happy to photograph them for you next time I am there  https://www.records.nsw.gov.au/

   There is a gap in the online probate indexes from 1891 to 1927 but I can check the microfiche index when I am there.   I will check for one for William SMITH who died 1912 in Granville.

Ros
Let's not tolerate bullying !
Herrington Kent  Henderson Scotland Kerr Scotland Reston Scotland  Smith Scotland  Kellow Cornwall  Doney Cornwall  Wadeson Lancashire  Whiteley Yorkshire Gregan Ireland


Offline majm

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Re: Smiths please help link these different families that are both dna connected
« Reply #4 on: Monday 15 October 18 23:50 BST (UK) »
 :)

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=606534.msg4575437#msg4575437 includes an official transcription of a NSW BDM death that will likely be part of this quest.

JM


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Offline majm

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Re: Smiths please help link these different families that are both dna connected
« Reply #5 on: Monday 15 October 18 23:52 BST (UK) »
Deb,

please could you post links to any other previous threads

Thanks,

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
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Offline judb

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DYER - Wilts, London, Somerset, MIDLANE - Hants, Wilts, SONE - Hants, WRIGHT - London, Hants, SEAGER - Deptford, DWYER, FERGUSON - Victoria, MASON - Woodford Vic, BALLARD - South Wales, GOULDBY - Lowestoft
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Offline iforani

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Re: Smiths please help link these different families that are both dna connected
« Reply #7 on: Wednesday 17 October 18 06:47 BST (UK) »
Thanks, Judith, JM and Ros. I didn't wish to link to any other posts as this tangled web is tangled enough already. I just had a private message from Rhonda who must have read this and is trying to untangle who Mary Ann Smith aka Muriel Annie Stanley was (my great grandmother and the daughter of Eliza Emma Cooper and unknown Smith. I think it will only lead to more confusion. Ros, the William Smith who died in Granville was the same man who married Eliza Emma Cooper but there is no new info on his dc other than the further confusion that he was William Charles Smith for the first few births of his children then William Peter Smith named for children born later and on his death certificate. I can answer questions if anyone is prepared to take this quest on. It's one that I've been tackling for years and as I said, was made even more confusing after dna matches came through. I will look at the dc's for the Thomas Smiths but I'm not 100% sure that the year/place of death and dc for one of the Thomas Smiths (as given on ancestry trees) match that person, just to add to the confusion; otherwise this is where I would have started, cross matching the dc's. Deb
McKay (Kildare, Ireland), Aldred (Manchester), Smith, Cooper (Kent), Howlett, Bodill, Atkins (Northamptonshire), Smart (UK, Africa), Brown, Bryant, Dixon, Walton

Offline majm

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Re: Smiths please help link these different families that are both dna connected
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 17 October 18 09:44 BST (UK) »
Deb,

please could you post links to any other previous threads

Thanks,

JM

I asked the question simply because I know there's the following statement in the How to thread stickied at the top of  the Australia Board  :D  :D  :D

Just One More Thing


We all know how frustrating it can we to desperately require information that is not forthcoming. Duplicate Requests do cause problems.  Our volunteers can become grumpy when they realize that they have just used their time and resources on a problem which has been answered elsewhere. We also have those posting the queries becoming upset when somebody mentions the duplication. The last thing we want is anger and hurt feelings. We all want a smooth running board with queries being answered as quickly and efficiently as possible. Far better for the Poster's and for the Look up Volunteers alike.

If you do have other threads where you previously received help with this person, please be sure to add the link(s) your new thread.

 :D
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=368728.0

It won't deter me from checking back through to see if I kept any handwritten notes back then when helping earlier  :D  and I will go through your previous posts options to see what I can recall and where there may be mis-steps or what ever the fancy word is at present...  ::)

But it may well be the weekend before I can have the quiet time to concentrate...  I am sure the Smiths will become less confusing when they are ready to show themselves...  ;D

JM
The information in my posts is provided for academic and non-commercial research purposes. 
Random Acts of Kindness Given Freely are never Worthless for they are Priceless.
Qui scit et non docet.    Qui docet et non vivit.    Qui nescit et non interrogat.   
All Census Look Ups Are Crown Copyright from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
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