Author Topic: English or Latin?  (Read 622 times)

Offline goldie61

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,501
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
English or Latin?
« on: Friday 19 October 18 21:28 BST (UK) »
This is about half of this document - a Final concord, written 1665.
According to TNA site, this is written in English, but I'm not convinced.

I can make out some names - on the 3rd line there is Willm Lane & Hugonem Ford.... Johem Rowley gen(t)? & Elizabeth, plus some others, then what would appear to be some indication of 'acres' and 'pasture'.

And on the 5th line are place names - Tunstall, Bagnold, Horton, Norton, Slyn alias Slyndon, Ridgway & Eccleshall (these are given on the precis on TNA).

Any help gratefully received! Thank you.


Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline Bookbox

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,913
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: English or Latin?
« Reply #1 on: Friday 19 October 18 23:17 BST (UK) »
It’s in Latin and it’s a Final Concord – part of a fictitious lawsuit, used as a means of conveying property through the court. William Lane and Hugh Ford are obtaining the two messuages and the lands etc. from the other parties named. If you want to post the whole thing, I can probably do it for you in due course, but not tonight.

An explanation of the process is here ...
https://www.nottingham.ac.uk/manuscriptsandspecialcollections/researchguidance/deedsindepth/freehold/finalconcord.aspx

Offline goldie61

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,501
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: English or Latin?
« Reply #2 on: Saturday 20 October 18 00:58 BST (UK) »
Thanks Bookbox. I didn't think it was in English.
Yes, I have seen the Nottingham University pages about 'Final concords' - very interesting.

It's the William Lane I'm interested in as it's the only document I can find that mentions him.
(There is another document held at TNA in Court of Chancery from 3 years before this one, that also names John Rowley, a John Ford and a William 'Cane' about property in Norton. I know William Lane lived there when he died in 1676. I have written to the TNA to see if they can see if this is a mis-transcription and it it could be 'Lane'.)

I'll post the whole thing and that would be great if you could translate it - when you've got time.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs

Offline goldie61

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,501
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: English or Latin?
« Reply #3 on: Saturday 20 October 18 05:36 BST (UK) »
This is the whole piece.
If it's not good enough resolution, I can post it in 2 bits.
This was the best I could do and still get it under 500KBs.

Many thanks.
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs


Offline Bookbox

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 7,913
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: English or Latin?
« Reply #4 on: Saturday 20 October 18 11:52 BST (UK) »
Resolution is fine, no problem.

I appreciate you say it's dated 1665, but it must be 1665/66, because 18 Charles II is 30 Jan 1666 – 29 Jan 1667, and the Purification is 2 Feb, so the Octave will be 10 Feb.

=====

This is the final agreement made in the court of the Lord King at Westminster on the Octave of the Purification of the Blessed Mary in the eighteenth year of the reign of Charles the Second after the Conquest, by the grace of God King of England, Scotland, France and Ireland, Defender of the Faith, before Orlando Bridgeman, Thomas Tirrell, Samuel Browne and John Archer, justices, and other judges loyal to the King then and there present, between William Lane and Hugh Ford, plaintiffs, John Rowley, gentleman, & Elizabeth his wife, Richard Bradshawe the younger, gentleman, & Katherine his wife, John Irish, and Thomas Corfeild & Margaret his wife, defendants, concerning two messuages, sixty acres of meadow land, forty acres of pasture, common rights of pasture and common rights of turf, with appurtenances, in Tunstall, Bagnold, Horton, Norton, Slyn otherwise Slyndon, Ridgway & Eccleshall, whence a plea of covenant was summoned between them in the same court, namely, that the aforesaid John & Elizabeth, Richard & Katherine, John, and Thomas & Margaret have acknowledged the aforesaid tenements and common rights with appurtenances to be the right of the same Hugh and William, as being those which the same Hugh and William have as a gift of the aforesaid John & Elizabeth, Richard & Katherine, John, and Thomas & Margaret; and they have remised and quitclaimed these from themselves John & Elizabeth, Richard & Katherine, John, and Thomas & Margaret and their heirs to the aforesaid William and Hugh and the heirs of the same Hugh for ever  And the same John Rowley and Elizabeth have granted on behalf of themselves and the heirs of the same John that they will warrant to the aforesaid William and Hugh and the heirs of the same Hugh the aforesaid tenements and commons with appurtenances against the aforesaid John & Elizabeth and the heirs of the same John for ever  And also Richard & Katherine have granted on behalf of themselves and the heirs of the same Richard that they will warrant to the aforesaid William and Hugh and the heirs of the same Hugh the aforesaid tenements and commons with appurtenances against the aforesaid Richard & Katherine and the heirs of the same Richard for ever  And also John Irish has granted on behalf of himself and his heirs that he will warrant to the aforesaid William and Hugh and the heirs of the same Hugh the aforesaid tenements and commons with appurtenances against the aforesaid John and his heirs for ever  And also the same Thomas & Margaret have granted on behalf of themselves and the heirs of the same Thomas that they will warrant to the aforesaid William and Hugh and to the heirs of the same Hugh the aforesaid tenements and commons with appurtenances against the aforesaid Thomas & Margaret and the heirs of the same Thomas for ever  And for this recognition, remise, quitclaim, warranty, fine and agreement, the same William and Hugh have given to the aforesaid John & Elizabeth, Richard & Katherine, John, and Thomas & Margaret one hundred and twenty pounds sterling.


Offline goldie61

  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 4,501
  • Census information Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
    • View Profile
Re: English or Latin?
« Reply #5 on: Saturday 20 October 18 22:27 BST (UK) »
Thank you so much Bookbox.  :)

A pity it's not more specific about the land - all those villages would cover quite an area.
I do know William Lane lived at Ridgeway at one time - just out of Norton, so perhaps this is what is mentioned here.
Another possible lead with Hugh Ford...........  :)
Lane, Burgess: Cheshire. Finney, Rogers, Gilman:Derbys
Cochran, Nicol, Paton, Bruce:Scotland. Bertolle:London
Bainbridge, Christman, Jeffs: Staffs