Author Topic: "Upper" in townland parlance  (Read 384 times)

Offline Ghostwheel

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"Upper" in townland parlance
« on: Sunday 21 October 18 02:57 BST (UK) »
What is the significance of the word "Upper", as in the case of Upper Tullig, Killorglin Parish, Co. Kerry?

Is it meant to distinguish it from other Tulligs in nearby parishes?  Or does it have something to do with the terrain?

What confuses me about it is there is a Tulligbeg and a Tulligmore.  Next to each other, of course.  Both, or at least parts of both, are described as "Upper."

If I type in "Upper Tullig", I only seem to get Killorglin Parish.

I believe I have also heard the term "Upper Tullig East."  Any idea if that would be considered the eastern part of Tullig, or does it mean the Eastern Tullig?

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Offline Sinann

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Re: "Upper" in townland parlance
« Reply #1 on: Sunday 21 October 18 07:14 BST (UK) »
Where are you finding this?
I can only see Tullig Beg (Small) and Tullig More (Big)
https://www.johngrenham.com/c_parish/c_parish_main.php?civilparishid=1149&county=Kerry&civilparish=Killorglin&CountyMap=

Upper and Lower usually mean North and South but sometimes can refer to higher or lower terrain.

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Offline Ghostwheel

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Re: "Upper" in townland parlance
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 21 October 18 17:49 BST (UK) »
If you look at the Killorglin Catholic Parish records in the 1800s, you often seen "Tullig Upper." 

https://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/search.jsp?namefm=&namel=&location=tullig+upper&yyfrom=1798&yyto=1900&submit=Search

I think the term might still be is use.  Someone I know was visiting the area in 1983 and took a photo of an old house.  It is captioned "Upper Tullig."  This I am pretty sure was in Tullig More.  Meanwhile, I know a family on the 1901 census who lived in Tulligbeg, many of their births say "Upper Tullig ."

I don't see any Lower Tullig, but there is an Upper and Lower Cromane in the same parish on the Tithes.  Lower Cromane is not on townlands.ie.  But there are Shannera and Glancuttaun versions of both.  From looking at the peaks on the map, I'd guess it generally means something to do with elevation in the context of Kerry.  Upper being higher.

It is odd that there is no Lower Tullig.  Maybe it could be bog or marsh that nobody lived in?

Okay, I definitely see a W, so I am going to assume East and West are just different parts of this same townland.  Tullig Beg is in the West and Tullig More to the East, Though I'm not sure if each direction refers to one specifically.  Assuming no moves between births, I've seen the term Upper used with both East and West.

Offline Sinann

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Re: "Upper" in townland parlance
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 21 October 18 21:37 BST (UK) »
Looks like a case of local naming.
I think basically you have a townland called Tullig divided into Beg and More, with local naming of Upper, West etc which probably relate to the terrain.
Looking at those parish records More is hardly used at all and than only in the 1890s

Offline Ghostwheel

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Re: "Upper" in townland parlance
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 21 October 18 23:05 BST (UK) »
It seems so odd that they would bother saying "Upper", since there is no apparent mention of a "Lower", and it doesn't seem very specific, by itself.

What's more, Tullig More and Tullig Beg both seem like moderately-sized townlands, if you think of them like addresses.  In 1901, there were 182 in More and 328 in Beg.  That seems like a lot to combine them both and find someone named John O'Brien or Mary O'Neill .   

I'm thinking maybe if someone's goat got loose in the swamp, then they might use the term Lower Tullig, but it is still inexplicable to me why they would tell the priest they were from Upper Tullig.

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Re: "Upper" in townland parlance
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 21 October 18 23:32 BST (UK) »
Tullig Beg is not a Townland, it is a sub townland


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Offline oldohiohome

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Re: "Upper" in townland parlance
« Reply #6 on: Monday 22 October 18 00:21 BST (UK) »
Cambridgeshire: Billups, Cropley; Derbyshire: Jenkinson, Gratton; Co Down: O'Rourke, Rodgers, Cunningham

Offline Sinann

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Re: "Upper" in townland parlance
« Reply #7 on: Monday 22 October 18 00:51 BST (UK) »
It seems so odd that they would bother saying "Upper", since there is no apparent mention of a "Lower", and it doesn't seem very specific, by itself.

What's more, Tullig More and Tullig Beg both seem like moderately-sized townlands, if you think of them like addresses.  In 1901, there were 182 in More and 328 in Beg.  That seems like a lot to combine them both and find someone named John O'Brien or Mary O'Neill .   

I'm thinking maybe if someone's goat got loose in the swamp, then they might use the term Lower Tullig, but it is still inexplicable to me why they would tell the priest they were from Upper Tullig.

I think your over analysing.
Tullig Beg is 1314 acres Tullig More 535 so even their names don't match their sizes. Local people give places names to make life easier, it made sense to them at the time but probably not to later generations.

For years I lived in Mill Meadows, it's not on any map and apart from my self and my Grandmother I don't think anyone knew it's name, there is no mill there now, the only map I have found marking the mill is from 1777, you could see the mark of the mill stream in the grass but it's build over now, but there must have been a time when everyone in the area knew where Mill Meadows was, it was someone's address and must be on records somewhere but I pity their descendants if they ever try to find it.

Offline Sinann

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Re: "Upper" in townland parlance
« Reply #8 on: Monday 22 October 18 00:53 BST (UK) »