Author Topic: Avica the mysterious woman  (Read 19909 times)

Offline JAP

  • RootsChat Leaver
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *
  • Posts: 5,034
    • View Profile
Re: Avica the mysterious woman
« Reply #27 on: Tuesday 16 August 05 15:37 BST (UK) »
Hi Louise,

DALTON is a common name so the Knowle people may well not be connected!  I suspect that the Church Lawford DALTONs were CofE (they are pretty easily traceable back to 1602).  In the family I'm researching it was a William, bap Church Lawford in 1758, who went to Leicestershire and married into a Wesleyan family in 1782 in Hinckley Leicestershire; he and his family were subsequently very big in the Wesleyan Methodists in Barwell, Leicestershire - though virtually all had left Barwell by the late 1800s.  Some of William's grandsons came to Australia in the 1850s ...  A daughter of one of whom (this was my children's Ggma) married in a Primitive Methodist Parsonage in Victoria, Australia

I grew up thinking of navvies as workers on the waterfront - no doubt it has a wider and even a more specific application.  My Gpa, an ardent collective bargainer who started the first Shearers' Union in Aus back in the 1880s would, no doubt, have set me right!

The whole Temperance Movement of the 1800s - world-wide - is a fascinating story.

I guess that the Rootsweb Mariners-L could help with the "Jeand'acre" or whatever her name actually was.  And Lloyds Registers might help.

Cheers,

JAP
Louise, Google for ship jean d'acre!!
Click Here
Might Samuel have been aboard ...

Offline LouiseB31

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 228
    • View Profile
Re: Avica the mysterious woman
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 20 August 05 14:30 BST (UK) »
Hello

I have the first results of my research back.

Eliza Finch's birth certificate arrived from Southport today.

She was born 20th June 1841 which explains why she was not on the census that year.

Her mother is Evice Finch formerly Wilson, her father is John Finch, labourer. The birth is registered 7th of July 1841 and her mother is illiterate, leaving her mark.

So I am happy that Evice Finch is Avica Wilson my great great great great grandmother. I cannot think that there were two Avica Wilsons in Harbury. Therefore the four children are William's half siblings.

This does not however satisfy our curiousity as to the identity of Mary Finch. I know we think she is Avica by another name, but how can we be sure? What do you suggest I apply for next? My friend is going to check the marriage entry in the parish register in Warwick for me soon, shall I wait to see that or is there something else I can look at?

I wonder why they got married in Coventry St Michaels and not Harbury, given that they were both living there. Something to do with William's illegitimacy? shame?

My other question is, if John Finch was first married to Hannah who died and then to Avica, if we believe that, then what happened to their children? They are not on the 1841 census.

Regards and best wishes

Louise


Baldock, Millward, Harriman, Wilson, Hilton, Fairclough, Hadley, Bedford, Brady, Butler, Watchorn, Marshall, Jutson, Pinfold, Masters, Mottram, Upton, Daffern, Shellswell, Skelding, Wall, Taylor, Scattergood, Ferguson, Innous, Mulley, Hyams

Offline Valda

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,160
    • View Profile
Re: Avica the mysterious woman
« Reply #29 on: Saturday 20 August 05 15:05 BST (UK) »
The two older female Finches by 1841 if not already married, would be working somehere as servants and if the 1861 census record is correct for the Samuel Finch born Harbury, then he may have already joined the Royal Marines, as by then he would have been 19 (and the youngest of the three surviving children).
People often married out of parish in the nearest large conurbation in the C19th. With banns read three times in church and everyone knowing your business, some people just preferred to go off to a town or city and marry more anonymously there. Nothing really to do with shame. You also got a trip to Coventry. The C19th equivalent of marrying on a beach in Jamaica, or going to Vegas today.
I think you have enough proof that Avica in some records by the 1840s was Avica (birth of Eliza 20th June) and in others such as the 1841 census (census night June 6th) was Mary, which just leaves you trying to find her baptism in Oxfordshire.

Regards
Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline LouiseB31

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 228
    • View Profile
Re: Avica the mysterious woman
« Reply #30 on: Saturday 20 August 05 20:41 BST (UK) »
Thanks Valda, some more useful avenues to go down.

I am glad you agree with me that it is now pretty certain that the four children of John and Avica/Evica/Avies/Abitha are William's half siblings. It is odd why the census is different but they interchange Henry Thomas's name too so maybe they were a bit casual on that front and being illiterate probably meant that someone other than Avica talked to the enumerator each time he called. It would be very strange if Avica and John were also in Harbury having the same children as Mary and John, but did not themselves appear on the census, so I think we have to take it on trust that they are the same couple.

I notice in an earlier post you said you had found John and "Mary" on the censuses up to and including 1881. I wonder if you recorded what you found there, it would be nice to have the "full set".

I'll post up the results of the marriage look-up as soon as I get it.

Best wishes
Louise
Baldock, Millward, Harriman, Wilson, Hilton, Fairclough, Hadley, Bedford, Brady, Butler, Watchorn, Marshall, Jutson, Pinfold, Masters, Mottram, Upton, Daffern, Shellswell, Skelding, Wall, Taylor, Scattergood, Ferguson, Innous, Mulley, Hyams


Offline Valda

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,160
    • View Profile
Re: Avica the mysterious woman
« Reply #31 on: Saturday 20 August 05 22:15 BST (UK) »
I think I only posted up the 1851 census, so I'm presuming you mean from 1861 onwards?

RG9 2241 folio 87
North Street Harbury  Warwickshire   
John Finch 62 Hunningham, Warwickshire,  Head  Married Ag lab
Mary Finch 59  Fivefield, Oxfordshire, Wife  Married

RG10 3218 folio 67
North Street Harbury  Warwickshire   
John Finch 72 Huningham, Warwickshire,  Head Married Labourer
Mary Finch 71  Fifield, Oxfordshire, England Wife  Married

RG11 3114 folio 59
North Street, Harbury, Warwickshire
John Finch 82 Huningham, Warwickshire, Head  Married Formally labourer
Mary Finch 81 Fifield, Oxfordshire, Wife  Married

RG12 2369 folio 96
1 Regent Buildings Ladywood Birmingham
Finch, John 55 Harbury, Warwickshire, Head  Married Gardener
Finch, Eliza 49 Halton, Warwickshire, Wife  Married
Finch, Henry J 18 Finstall, Worcestershire, Son Wine cellarman
Finch, Sophia F 17 Woodbrook, Worcestershire, Daughter  Sweetmeat maker
Finch, Frank A 6 Birmingham, Warwickshire, Son 
Finch, Mary 90 Fifefield, Oxfordshire, Mother Widow

Regards
Valda


Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline LouiseB31

  • RootsChat Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 228
    • View Profile
Re: Avica the mysterious woman
« Reply #32 on: Saturday 20 August 05 22:19 BST (UK) »
People often married out of parish in the nearest large conurbation in the C19th. With banns read three times in church and everyone knowing your business, some people just preferred to go off to a town or city and marry more anonymously there. Nothing really to do with shame. You also got a trip to Coventry. The C19th equivalent of marrying on a beach in Jamaica, or going to Vegas today.

Valda, I forgot to say how much this tickled me, the idea that Coventry was a big deal in the first third of the C18th.

I have another pair of ancestors that married in the poshest church in Nottingham in the 1700s when they actually lived in a village 10 miles outside.

I guess it is the same sort of thing. What a pity they didn't have Hello Magazine to sell the photos to, or the photos either come to that.

I am now entering all the various information on various spreadsheets and databases so I can see if there are any gaps.

I'll look round for the missing children.

I went to Warwickshire archives at the castle and looked through all the Harbury parish records about 20 years ago but obviously completely missed the Finches. I could kick myself, but there you go.

As I was typing, you too were typing, so thanks for all the new info which I will now read

I am so grateful, really I am, you are such a wonderful help, I might have to put you up for a rootschat honour.

Regards
Louise


Baldock, Millward, Harriman, Wilson, Hilton, Fairclough, Hadley, Bedford, Brady, Butler, Watchorn, Marshall, Jutson, Pinfold, Masters, Mottram, Upton, Daffern, Shellswell, Skelding, Wall, Taylor, Scattergood, Ferguson, Innous, Mulley, Hyams

Offline Valda

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,160
    • View Profile
Re: Avica the mysterious woman
« Reply #33 on: Saturday 20 August 05 23:04 BST (UK) »
Perhaps I slightly over did the bright lights of Coventry in the C19th, though I think whisking your partner off to the local metropolis for however long it took to get married - usually people bought a licence if they could afford it, so less than the required 3 weeks residency, but I bet that was fudged a bit with addresses of convenience, would certainly be one way to impress your future partner. That 'old Coventry magic' seems to have worked for John - the marriage lasted until his death, so about 58 years in all.

I don't actually know what a Rootschat honour is, but then I'm the sort that didn't notice there was a number next to my name counting the messages I'd  sent, plus a collection of stars, until I was up to 370 messages. I kid you not.

I think on this one the honours are equally spread amongst everyone who has helped you and for their benefit reading this I need to explain I have helped you on another thread with another puzzle, or they will quite rightly wonder why I have been single out.
Helping and being thanked, for me is fine.

I hope your trip the the National Archives on Tuesday goes well.

Regards
Valda
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline JAP

  • RootsChat Leaver
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *
  • Posts: 5,034
    • View Profile
Re: Avica the mysterious woman
« Reply #34 on: Sunday 21 August 05 04:22 BST (UK) »
Thanks Valda; yes, I guess 'twas I who introduced the name FINCH (yes, I'm a bird-watcher) into the thread - but I just like puzzles and this thread had a subject which was so tantalizing 8)

Louise, earlier I said that I had looked at the Fifield batches - there are only two, C047861 and M047861 - and had found nothing.

That was not strictly true.  I hadn't found any WILSONs in either batch but I had noticed an 'Avice' in the birth/baptism batch - but hadn't followed up on her.
The only Mary baptisms in the batch 1801 +/- 5 years are Mary Anne CUMMINES, 12 Feb 1802, Henry/Sarah; Mary GRIFFIN, 20 Mar 1803, John/Elizabeth; Mary HARRIS, 1 May 1803, John/Sarah.
Of course, it may well be that Mary/'Avica' was not christened.

However, looking back at this 'Avice', she is:
Avice SIMPSON, bap 3 Aug 1800, mother Ann SIMPSON, no father mentioned, Fifield by Burford, Oxfordshire.

This is the right time for the Fifield-born Mary (whom we strongly/confidently suspect to be the same person as the mysterious 'Avica'), wife of John FINCH - Mary was b Fifield Oxfordshire ca 1800/1801 according to census information.

How tempting to think that Avice's father might have been a Mr WILSON or that Ann SIMPSON might have subsequently married a Mr WILSON - and that Avice SIMPSON might have grown up as Avice WILSON ;D

And even that such a WILSON family might have moved to Harbury.

I haven't (yet?) managed to find anything else to support such a hypothesis but ...

Incidentally, there seem to be two sets of Fifield records listed on FamilySearch - the Bishops Transcripts 1669-1851, the film of which can be ordered in to LDS FHCs; and St. John the Baptist Fifield, Oxon. parish register transcripts which are not available for circulation to FHCs.  Both seem to be held in the Library of the Society of Genealogists.  Not that it is likely that anything further would be found in the full baptism entry.

Regards,

JAP

Offline Valda

  • RootsChat Honorary
  • RootsChat Marquessate
  • *******
  • Posts: 16,160
    • View Profile
Re: Avica the mysterious woman
« Reply #35 on: Sunday 21 August 05 11:05 BST (UK) »
No Ann Simpson marriage anywhere on the IGI to a Wilson, within 10 years of the baptism (though I did say Oxfordshire is not well covered) - no Ann Simpson marriage to anyone in Fifield. I was already ahead of you on a Wilson move to Harbury and had checked the National Burial Index for Wilsons, at the same time as I checked for Finches - nothing. I've gone back and checked for Simpson - still nothing (Harbury only goes up to 1852).
Fifield is not on the National burial index - but I have not detected a single Wilson event in Fifield on the IGI (but see below on start of IGI coverage for the parish).

Ann Simpson of Fifield had a child before Avice - John Hayward Simpson in 1796, which might give an indication of his father's surname at least. No other Simpsons baptised in Fifield around this time (but the IGI coverage I think only begins in 1794). No marriage for a John Hayward Simpson on the IGI, or a death of the same on FreeBMD. On the 1861 census there is a John Simpson 60 born Fifield an ag lab. with his wife Sarah 56 born Charlbury Oxon. No other Simpsons born Fifield or in Fifield or Wil(l)sons or Haywards and no Avis or Avice, but 1861 is a long time after the events. No John Simpson after 1861 and no death registration on FreeBMD.

However, and here comes something much more interesting, there is a Hannah Simpson marriage 15th October 1812 in Harbury to a William Masters. The 1841 census entry for this couple has already been posted with Hannah approximately 50 born in county, so to young for a son in 1796.
Undeterred I checked the 1851 census for Hannah Masters and found this

HO/107/2077 Folio:   98
Mill Street, Harbury
Hannah  MASTERS Head Widow 66 Farmg 11 Acres Emp 1 Lab born Fifefield-OXF

Which would give her a birthdate of circa 1785, still to young for baptisms of a child in 1796. As far as I can tell Hannah Masters and Mary Finch were the only two people born in Fifield present in Harbury in 1851. Ditto 1861.

RG9  2241 folio 72
Chapel Street Harbury  Warwickshire 
Hannah Masters 79  born Fifield, Oxfordshire, Head  Widow Formerly the wife of ag lab

Her age is improving as she now has a birth date of circa 1782 which could just squeeze her in at 14 for a baptism for 1796, though its a tight fit. After that she is missing and I can't find a death registration for her on FreeBMD.

Other than Avice Simpson taking her father's surname of Wilson (he doesn't appear to be in Fifield parish as there are no Wilsons appearing in the parish register) I can't think of another easy explanation for her surname (I can't find any previous marriages for her, though of course she might have married as a Mary- none as Hayward either). I think it would be very unusual for an illegitimate daughter brought up by her Simpson mother to carry her father's surname, unless perhaps her mother had a Wilson connection? If there is a bastardy bond for Avice Simpson in Oxfordshire Record Office that might help if the father's name proves to be Wilson. It gives no help at all with explaining a late name change to Mary. (Ann/Anna/Hannah is much more standard)

Louise says somewhere previously in her messages that she has researched Stephen Masters family, the father of Avica's son. Is there a connection with William Masters of Harbury, the husband of Hannah, since Stephen Masters was baptised 1805 in Staverton Northants?
The only burial I can find for a William Masters on the National burial index does not give an age - 25th August 1848 Harbury Wesleyan (nothing on FreeBMD).
I cannot find on the IGI a baptism of a William Masters in Harbury but I can find several possibles for a William in Staverton.
So was William Masters of Harbury, an uncle of Stephen's?
In which case married Stephen may very well have had an illegitmate child by his step cousin (I think that offically would be the relationship). It also means along with the half and step Finches and the half Masters of Stephen's children, there is now the possibility of a half Masters aunt, a child of William Masters and Hannah.

The IGI for Harbury lists only one baptism for a Master

MARY ANN MASTERS 
Christening:  07 MAR 1828   Harbury, Warwick
Age at Christening:  14   
Father:  WILLIAM MASTERS 
Mother:  ANN 

and a marriage
MARY ANN MASTER 
Spouse:  EDWARD MARTIN 
Marriage:  10 APR 1834   Harbury, Warwick
 
There were Martin children on the 1841 census with William and Hannah.

As I think the IGI Fifield register coverage only starts in 1794 (according to my Phillimore Atlas and Index of parish registers) perhaps the early period and Hannah's baptism may reveal Wilson connections? - Fifield registers appear to go back to 1700 (see Phillimore quote above) but JAP says that the Bishop transcripts - the copies of the registers which were sent to the Bishop, survive before that starting in 1669.

The transcript of the parish registers themselves can be bought on fiche from Oxfordshire Family History Society for the grand sum of
Fifield, Oxon - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  £2.10

http://www.ofhs.org.uk/

On their website you can check out their other search facilities, - payment is possible online by credit card

Regards
Valda




Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk