Second Anglo-Afghan War 1878-80

[Linjoa]

Thank you Garen . . !

>If he joined for 12 years short service (which came in in 1870), then that would have been 1871, the year of the census. If William was with the 2/14th Foot (PWO West Yorks.) from enlistment, then they were in England at that time - in Sheffield (he'd have been young, but if a drummer - possible).

There was a William Barber, aged 14, born London MDX on the 1871 census, Nether Hallam, Sheffield, at the Sheffield Barracks as a 'soldier' which may well be him.

>Have a look on Find My Past to see if there is a service record (WO97) for 2494 William Barber. I did see there is a WO121 discharge paper, which doesn't contain a lot of information, but gives a discharge date of Feb 1883.

This discharge date also fits as William married in 1884 in Bekshire (for the first time) and the second, in 1917 Surrey.  Still awaiting the first marriage cert but from the indexes, his father was also 'William.'
I have looked at some military records on Findmypast but will check again.  None so far had the correct service number. . . . .

William is not with his wife and only daughter in 1891 so only have him for sure in 1901 and 1911.
If in India  in 1881, that rules out that census.  Going backward has been the problem as it's a common name, with losts of options but this soldier in 1871 in Sheffield looks very good . . .!

Many thanks,
Linda

[Goldhain]

Hi Garen, remember helping me with some info re Samuel Phillips of the 18th (Royal Irish) Regiment last month?  Well, with your info, I've made good progress with my research but I'm stuck on the last bits of detail and I wondered if you could help me again, please?!

- could you tell me what your source was for Lieut Phillips' journey from Portsmouth to India on the troopship, Euphrates?  I can't find any mention anywhere and wondered if there were 'passenger' lists as such I could see for myself

- The Military Campaign Medals & Award Rolls showed that Captn Phillips was in England on medical leave, as was his colleague Major Robert Adamson, when the Afghan War medals were awarded and his was sent on 23 Nov 1881.  Any ideas as to how I can find out when & how SP returned to England?  I see that a number of invalids are given for some of the returning troopships.  Was there a record of their names that I can see?

- You said that Captn SP rejoined the 1st battalion in India in Feb 1882.  Where did you get this info?  Which troopship was he on and where did it sail from and to?

- You said that SP wasn't named as involved in Egypt after the Anglo-Afghan war.  Where can I find the list of names of those involved?
 
- If he wasn't involved in this Nile Expedition and wasn't with the 1st battalion Royal Irish when it returned to Plymouth from Egypt aboard the Stirling Castle on 9 Sept 1895, can I find out when and how he got back to England earlier?  He was appointed Adjutant to the 4th battalion, Royal Irish on 1st Jan 1884 so maybe that means he was back from India by then (the 1st battalion didn't head from Meerut, India to Egypt until August 1884) - I don't know where the 4th battalion was at the beginning of 1884.  SP married in England in Sept 1885 shortly after the return of the 1st battalion.

Would much appreciate your input if you have time!

Many thanks

Pippa

[Garen]

Hello Pippa - I've had a recheck of the sources to confirm the info below ...

- could you tell me what your source was for Lieut Phillips' journey from Portsmouth to India on the troopship, Euphrates?  I can't find any mention anywhere and wondered if there were 'passenger' lists as such I could see for myself

This is from the Hampshire Telegraph, Wed 18 Dec 1878, saying that L/5 RA "embarked on Friday at Portsmouth for India in Her Majesty's Indian troopship Euphrates ... The following are the names of the officers who have embarked in the same vessel:- ... ... Lieut. Phillips, 18th Foot; ... ..."

- The Military Campaign Medals & Award Rolls showed that Captn Phillips was in England on medical leave, as was his colleague Major Robert Adamson, when the Afghan War medals were awarded and his was sent on 23 Nov 1881.  Any ideas as to how I can find out when & how SP returned to England?  I see that a number of invalids are given for some of the returning troopships.  Was there a record of their names that I can see?

I can't find anything in the newspapers regarding Phillips returning to England c.1881 (it may be there, I just haven't found it on my searches). Major Adamson returned from India aboard the Serapis (ref Freeman's Journal 28 Feb 1881) which arrived in England 4 Mar 1881 (ref Portsmouth Evening News 4 Mar 1881). The Serapis had aboard 29 officers of various regiments (ref Reading Mercury 5 Mar 1881), but that's not to say Phillips was - or was not - one of them (officers aren't always named). I don't know if muster rolls (see guide here) or officers' service papers (WO 25 + 76 - see guide here and here) might have more information?

- You said that Captn SP rejoined the 1st battalion in India in Feb 1882.  Where did you get this info?  Which troopship was he on and where did it sail from and to?

Freeman's Journal 23 Feb 1882: "Captain Phillips, of the Royal Irish Regiment, joined the 1st Battalion in India, from leave of absence in the early part of this month." That's a bit vague to be able to pinpoint a particular troopship.

- You said that SP wasn't named as involved in Egypt after the Anglo-Afghan war.  Where can I find the list of names of those involved?

I assumed Phillips was not in Egypt with the Royal Irish in Aug 1884 as he was appointed as Adjutant to the 4th North Tipperary Militia in Jan 1884 (ref London Gazette 11 Jan 1884); to back this up, the medal roll for Egypt/Sudan 1884 is on Ancestry (Africa > Sudan 1884-1886), and the 1st Bttn, Royal Irish roll does not include Phillips (Captains were Spyer, Forster, Guinness, Morgan, Baisragon and Francis).
 

- If he wasn't involved in this Nile Expedition and wasn't with the 1st battalion Royal Irish when it returned to Plymouth from Egypt aboard the Stirling Castle on 9 Sept 1895, can I find out when and how he got back to England earlier?  He was appointed Adjutant to the 4th battalion, Royal Irish on 1st Jan 1884 so maybe that means he was back from India by then (the 1st battalion didn't head from Meerut, India to Egypt until August 1884) - I don't know where the 4th battalion was at the beginning of 1884.  SP married in England in Sept 1885 shortly after the return of the 1st battalion.

I didn't see anything in the newspaper archive about Phillips returning to England (a more diligent search may reveal something). Again, maybe the muster rolls or officers service papers would help. Looking at the newspapers, the 4th Battalion Militia seem to have been in Ireland - eg. Clonmel, Curragh Camp in Aug 1883, Jul 1884 (from a very brief look I get the impression they were based at Clonmel and went to Curragh for annual training - this can be looked into more to confirm or not).

Hope this is some help, best -
Garen

[Goldhain]

Hi Garen, thank you - you've been a great help in filling my gaps.  You're obviously much better at searching than me!  I use the advance search on the bna website but still find it very random - sure I'll get better at it!

As to SP's return from India - found it!  Captain Samuel Phillips of the 1st battalion 18th Royal Irish Regiment left Bombay in the Serapis on the 13th November 1880 to visit his father in the county of Tipperary (Freeman's Journal 7 Dec 1880) and Serapis arrived at Portsmouth 11 Dec 1880 (Manchester Courier 13 Dec 1880).  Aren't the eureka moments rewarding?! Unfortunately, 1881 Irish census records were pulped during WWI due to the paper shortage so I can't check whether he was still in Ireland then but he doesn't seem to have been anywhere else.  He was on leave for a long time! 

Would like to make it to the National Archives one day ... but might take out a short sub for FindMyPast as think it has service records on it or maybe those are for soldiers rather than officers?

I think you're right about SP taking up his post with the 4th battalion and not serving in Egypt, especially if the 4th battalion was based in Clonmel, not far from his family home.

Thanks again for your help

Pippa 

[Garen]

Great find on Samuel's return to Blighty, Pippa - well done. Searching the BNA is an art unto itself, especially with the OCR text not always being what you'd expect.

Yes, for officers' papers you want The National Archives at Kew rather than FindMyPast - though the latter do have a few bits and bobs.

Best wishes - G

[davidrossiter]

Garen,

I have been completing some family research on the Poole's of the 66th regiment (James and Sydney). They are cousins of my direct Calway/Callaway line (you will notice their mother Callaway). I also serve as a Captain in the Mercian regiment so have a vested military interest in these two as well.

You have James on your site as being wounded at Maiwand, I am guessing that this has been worked out by the fact he is admitted to the hospital on 30.7.1880 due to a sword wound received in action. Also I note that you have put a note on saying that he is not recorded on the official casualty list (he also does not continue to say that he was wounded on his final medical record although where he was admitted to hospital it mentions the sword wound).

My thoughts here were perhaps he received the cut at Maiwand, having escaped the battlefield (a sword cut to the hand being painful enough to make fighting difficult) he fled to Kandahar but because he was walking wounded and perhaps could still use a weapon he is not registered as a casualty. A couple of days later the injury is infected and he remains in hospital for 21 days. He then recovered to fight at Kandahar. Was this your line of thought?

I am aware that 2 Companies were detached to garrison Kelat-i-Ghilzai (partaking in the last part of the Kabul-Kandahar march), but also some stayed back in Kandahar to provide a garrison for this and did not deploy to Maiwand (Lt Edwards who writes his diary is part of this force) do you know which Companies were detached to Kelat-i-Ghilzai and which one(s) remained in Kandahar, not fighting at Maiwand?
Is there any way of finding out what Company James was with at Maiwand?

What was the role of the 66th at the Battle of Kandahar as I am aware some people stayed behind to guard the Kandahar Citadel but I do not think these were awarded the clasp?, and the rest were part of the Field Reserve. Did this actually engage?

You also have Sydney down as being at Maiwand. Do you have evidence that he was there? I am guessing he wasn't detached to Kelat-i-Ghilzai as he did not have the Kabul-Kandahar Star, but could he have remained in the citadel with the defence detachment that the stragglers from the battle flee back to?

Lots of questions there so hope you don't mind me picking your brains! I was amazed when I found that these two (both from Somerset) were at Maiwand (or thereabouts). We learnt all about the battle at Sandhurst but I didn't for one minute think I would have relatives who actually fought there!

Look forward to hearing from you,

David

[Garen]

Hello David

Many thanks indeed for your message and thoughts on the Poole brothers!

You have James on your site as being wounded at Maiwand, I am guessing that this has been worked out by the fact he is admitted to the hospital on 30.7.1880 due to a sword wound received in action. Also I note that you have put a note on saying that he is not recorded on the official casualty list (he also does not continue to say that he was wounded on his final medical record although where he was admitted to hospital it mentions the sword wound).

My thoughts here were perhaps he received the cut at Maiwand, having escaped the battlefield (a sword cut to the hand being painful enough to make fighting difficult) he fled to Kandahar but because he was walking wounded and perhaps could still use a weapon he is not registered as a casualty. A couple of days later the injury is infected and he remains in hospital for 21 days. He then recovered to fight at Kandahar. Was this your line of thought?

I didn't really have a line of thought on James's wound - but your theory is certainly very possible.

I am aware that 2 Companies were detached to garrison Kelat-i-Ghilzai (partaking in the last part of the Kabul-Kandahar march), but also some stayed back in Kandahar to provide a garrison for this and did not deploy to Maiwand (Lt Edwards who writes his diary is part of this force) do you know which Companies were detached to Kelat-i-Ghilzai and which one(s) remained in Kandahar, not fighting at Maiwand?
Is there any way of finding out what Company James was with at Maiwand?

The companies at Kelat-i-Ghilzai were A Company and E Company, under the charge of Captain Mackinnion.

I don't think any entire companies stayed at Maiwand, I think it was a small detachment of men to look after the sick and for admin duties. B, C, D, F, G and H were all at Maiwand.

Sorry - I've no information on which company James Poole was in. I don't know if that's something you could find out from a request to the Wardrobe Museum?

What was the role of the 66th at the Battle of Kandahar as I am aware some people stayed behind to guard the Kandahar Citadel but I do not think these were awarded the clasp?, and the rest were part of the Field Reserve. Did this actually engage?

During the battle of Kandahar four companies (A, E, and possibly G and H) were used to occupy a line of pickets and hold a reinforcing position. Two companies were posted on Karez Hill and another placed between Karez Hill and Picquet Hill. They were probably under some fire, but not heavy, and there were no 66th casualties.

No, I don't believe those remaining in the Citadel received the Kandahar clasp.

You also have Sydney down as being at Maiwand. Do you have evidence that he was there? I am guessing he wasn't detached to Kelat-i-Ghilzai as he did not have the Kabul-Kandahar Star, but could he have remained in the citadel with the defence detachment that the stragglers from the battle flee back to?

I don't have any evidence (that I can now find) that Sydney was at Maiwand. I can't now recall why I made that decision on the database (he was entered back in 2006). Numbers alone make his presence at the battle a likelihood, but not a certainty - you're quite right.

---

You might be interested to know that the Poole brothers and the majority of their info were contributed to me by a great-grandson of Sydney Poole. As I say, it was back in 2006 so a bit of a while ago now!

Best for now -
Garen

[davidrossiter]

Garen,

Thanks for your swift reply! Great knowledge!

I'm wondering if you may be able to answr a couple more questions:

1. Did Regiments in those days have a HQ Company or was the HQ just a small addition to A-H?
2. Was A Coy still a grenadier Company and H Coy a light Company at this point?
3. Yes like you I assumed due to numbers that Sydney was probably there. I can imagine that must have been pretty harrowing for them both knowing that somewhere on the battlefield a brother was in harm's way. Talking of numbers on this site http://www.northeastmedals.co.uk/british_regiment/royal_berkshire_66th_regiment_maiwand_afghan_medal_casualty_roll_4.htm there seems to have been far more deaths at Maiwand than the official death numbers state (I know there is some difference in figures for casualties) but this site suggests 481, which I think would be a bit high?
4. Do you still have an email address for the descendants of Sydney? it would  be useful to link up.

Thanks for your help so far, a fascinating part of British History not much talked about now. I shall endeavour to find out which Company they were in from the Wardrobe Museum as suggested.

David

[Garen]

Hello David - no problem! On to your follow-ups ...

1. Did Regiments in those days have a HQ Company or was the HQ just a small addition to A-H?

Not my area of expertise, but the HQ is fairly consistently referred to as a company in my Afghan narratives and sources, so presume it was one in its own right.

2. Was A Coy still a grenadier Company and H Coy a light Company at this point?

Sorry, I don't know this!

3. ... Talking of numbers on this site there seems to have been far more deaths at Maiwand than the official death numbers state (I know there is some difference in figures for casualties) but this site suggests 481, which I think would be a bit high?

481 sounds more like the number of the 66th present. When I was part of the research team for the Berkshire & Wiltshire Rifles Museum's book on Maiwand, the number of casualties was quite a point of discussion. I think we came up with 276 for the 66th Foot. Leigh Maxwell ('My God - Maiwand!') says 268. I'm sure I did an analysis of all the figures I could find once, but I can't locate it at the moment.

4. Do you still have an email address for the descendants of Sydney? it would  be useful to link up.

I will email the chap (bearing in mind his email goes back to 2006, so it may have changed since then) and see if he's agreeable to sharing contact details.

Edit: I've sent an email and will let you know. It hasn't bounced back, so that's possibly a good sign.

Edit 2: PM sent :-)

All best - Garen