HYAM / HYAMS - Plumstead, Kent 1890 onwards

[Linda]

Hello Sharon.  Happy New Year.
Thank you for the latest information.  I wonder how are we tying this family to Thomas?  Did you find a birth registration for Thomas?  Did you find anything to indicate that Charles was ever a publican? Any census info? Or anything else you might have to solve the mystery? Thanks

[Sharon S]

Hi Linda

Happy New Year to you.

I will try and recap on what information I have so far.  The reason that I know it is Charles and Ellen Hyam, is that it was handed down to me and Mum, first hand from my grandmother Annie Elizabeth Catherine Hyam, wife of Charles born 1907.

When I was about 12 years old, I was sitting with Mum and Nan.  Mum asked Nan, what name was Dad's father?
Nan replied Thomas.
Mum said who was his father/parents?
Nan replied Charles and Ellen.  He ran a pub.

So that was about it.

As for facts or sources or certificates...

So far I have got Charles Hyam on a census, born in 1825.

I don't have his marriage to Ellen.

I have them on the 1851 Census, living at Hadley Green, just the two no children.

I did find, while scouring, a lead, which showed the 1861 Census, and it had a Thomas Hyam, age 5, living in Norfolk, England. But because I am not a paid member  I couldn't access it.  I only have a subscription to Ancestry.com.  I think it was after doing a search on ' The Genealogist ' website. I really wanted to access it as I thought this could be a key piece.  I don't know if you are a member?  I can't remember if it was that site for sure, as I have been on all of them.

Next I discovered, that  Thomas Hyam had a sister, named Sarah.  So as I searched, I found that her birth and baptism was in 1865 St Peyers Liverpool. That is all on Lancashire OPC. Charles is a Coppersmith.

The only pub reference I have dug up, is a  Charles Higham (perhaps the name was transcribed by sound).  And he was landlord of The Brunswick Tavern (or  Brunswick Inn) in Liverpool, in 1870.  This would tie in with Sarah Ellen (her middle name after her Mother) being born in Liverpool 1865.
But no record of how many years or other pubs he managed.

The only death record I can find  for Charles is on FreeBMD under 'Male Hyam'  Holborn, England, I forget the year at present.

I thought I had Thomas's birth, but not yet, my mistake.  It is supposed to be in Norwich, 1856.  Nor can I find Charles and Ellen's marriage. 

But many of the siblings of Thomas have children that are still alive.  Like Thomas William's children.  Other  ones, Emily's. I wonder if any of them know.  I have the addresses and phone numbers of two so far, but havn't called.

Any thoughts?

Sharon

[Sharon S]

Hi Linda

I forgot to add:

I also have an article, which shows a Thomas and Sarah Hyam in 1881, living at St Pancras, and working for an older man by the name of Noah Fitt  tobacco pipe manufacturer, native of Norwich, Norfolk.

I wondered if they worked there until his death a few years later, then Thomas got work at The Royal Arsenal, thete he met and workrd with George Robinson. Was introduced to his sister, Emma Jane Robinson  and the rest from 1890, as they say, is history.

Sharon

[Sharon S]

Hi Linda

Back again.  Yes, it is The Genealogist website.

If you would like, try this.
Go to The Genealogist website home page. You should see Master Search come up.
Fill in Thomas Hyam  year of interest 1861.
Search.

554 results. Page 3, halfway down.
Thomas Hyam, age 5,  born 1856.
Norfolk 1861 Census.

More details button, only if you have a subscription.

Sharon

[Sharon S]

Hi Linda

The other interesting thing to note, on the Cornelius Thomas Craddock theory, is that if you go to Findmypast.com and do a search of Cornelius Hyam, you will notice that Cornelius Thomas would have had the father Cornelius Hyam  1811 - 1870,  born Thetford.

Whereas Thomas's father was Charles Hyam  1825 - ?.

Sharon

[Linda]

With all that, there is no proof that Thomas is son of Charles and Ellen that you found, or indeed  Cornelius that I found. 

We know that Cornelius was a publican, had a son that went by the name Thomas that was born around the right time, who went to jail in the 1880's and never reappeared. Perhaps the info on the marriage cert for Thomas to Emma Robinson are only half truths? He would certainly want to hide from Louisa since he was still married to her! Anyway this Thomas is the one that you mentioned, age 5 in 1861 Norfolk census, I already have that.

As for Charles and Ellen, the difficulty I'm having here is we have nothing at all to show that they had a son, let alone one named Thomas. Apart from your grandmother Annie's verbal information, where is this family in any census after 1851? Birth? Baptism?

Have you looked for Charles Higham in the Liverpool pub in 1871 census? That would be a good place to start since he was apparently there in 1870.  May not be the same Charles but possible.

If you have connections to the family then why not contact them?  They may be able to help.

[Linda]

Sharon, what is the article you found which shows a Thomas and Sarah Hyam in 1881, living at St Pancras.  Cannot find them in the 1881 census.

[Linda]

Hi Sharon

I found a marriage of Charles Higham to Margaret Ainsworth:
This was on the Lancashire Online Parish Clerk web site
The marriage took place at St John, Preston, Lancashire on 23 August 1856.
Charles was a Painter.
The marriage certificate will show Charles' age and if he was a widower and this may help to determine if it is the same Charles Hyam found with wife Ellen in 1851, although I think it is unlikely the same Charles.

It would appear that Charles and Margaret might have had a son named Thomas baptised 12 April 1857. This was also on the Lancashire Online Parish Clerk web site, Source shown as LDS film 93989.  Birth certificate will determine if father changed his occupation to publican.

I found a death for a Margaret Higham in Preston, 1859, age 28.  There were others around this time in Lancs and of various ages but this is the most likely.
This was also on the Lancashire Online Parish Clerk web site.
The death certificate would indicate if she was the wife of Charles.

I found a marriage of a Charles Higham to an Ellen Taylor:
Our Lady & St. Nicholas & St. Anne, Liverpool, in 1861
This was in an index on www.LancashireBMD.org.uk, no other details
Again, the marriage certificate should indicate age and if he was a widower.
I also don't know if this Charles and Ellen are the parents of Sarah but it is possible since she was baptised in Liverpool in 1865.

You will note that the marriage of Charles and Ellen in Liverpool took place in 1861, so it is likely not the same couple that you found in 1851 census in Hadley Green, although could be the same Charles that was previously married to Margaret.

[Sharon S]

Hi Linda

Thankyou for researching and sending me all those couples.  You have been busy.  I had seen the Ellen Taylor one before.

I have been having a break from ancestry research for a few days, as I have been working on other projects, and also found the whole Thomas Hyam search a little frustrating.

Firstly, to save you a little time, my facts that I have compiled, have  the family, (Charles, Ellen and Thomas Hyam)  living in Upwell, Norfolk, at least up until late 1864.  So any Liverpool stats before this time probably wouldn't be this family.
They would have moved to Liverpool in late 1864 or early 1865, and the next available record is Sarah Ellen's birth and baptism, February 1865. So I have only looked for them in Liverpool after this time.

I would say that Charles and Ellen were married prior to the 1851 Census, as it records  Ellen as a Hyam.  Ellen was born in 1818, Bradfield, Berkshire.  I can't find her birth certificate yet, but the only tips I have for her maiden name is either Barker or Berkin.

Thomas came along in 1856, Norwich, Norfolk, as we sort of know.

Maybe the move to Liverpool was to find a pub to run as there were alot of pubs there. The Brunswick Tavern, Preston, Lancashire is the only reference that comes close.

In 1881, the two children were living and working for Noah Fitt, in St. Pancras, London.
Thomas probably got work at the Royal Arsenal after this.

I know you say all this is no good without certificates.  True  I agree.  The only thing that makes me not consider Thomas Cornelius is this:
His father was Cornelius Hyam b. 1811, not Charles as on the Marriage Certificate. Both are publicans and deceased though.
Thomas Cornelius was born in 1855. Thomas was born in 1856.
Thomas Cornelius was born in Brandon, Norfolk. Thomas was born in Norwich, Norfolk.
The Cornelius name wasn't used for any of Thomas and Emma Hyam's children, but Charles was.
Cornelius was in jail from Feb 1884 to 1889. Not lleaving amuch time upon release to meet and marry Emma Jane, living a distance away, in Plumstead, Woolwich.

Anyway, the certificates may never be found. But I know that Nan said it was Charles and Ellen,  that were Charles Hyam 1907's grandparents.