Author Topic: Germany: George Green, pork butcher - COMPLETED  (Read 16926 times)

Offline Bethgem

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Germany: George Green, pork butcher - COMPLETED
« on: Tuesday 25 March 08 21:55 GMT (UK) »
I know my German grandfather came to England from Germany with his fiance, also German, and they married in Bradford in 1889. He was aged 31 and she was aged 23. I now want to find out why they came here, if that is at all possible.

He was issued with an Identity Book, No. 14087, in 1918. He was living in Congleton, Chester, where he had a pork butcher's shop, with his wife, my grandmother Fredericka, nee Weber.

The Identity Book shows "Date of arrival in District where this book was issued: 29 May 1889". Also, "Last previous place of residence: Bradford". That is where they married, on 19 May, and just ten days later they were in Congleton, Chester, where they settled and brought up a large family.

An only son, Charles George Green, became a serving member of our armed forces, which one is not known, and he fought for England in WW1. He died 20 Oct 1918, aged 29.

The date of immigration is not known. I have not been able to find out if there was a reason for them wanting to move here, either political, or uprising, or anything. Is there any way that I can search?

I know that in Germany they did not keep records like censuses as we do here. It has been difficult even making a start. Any help to point me in the right direction please?

Bethgem
Green (Grün) - Hohenberg, Württemberg, Germany
Weber - Ingelfingen, Germany
Also in Congleton, Cheshire, UK

Offline jorose

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Re: Germany: George Green, pork butcher
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 25 March 08 23:12 GMT (UK) »
His son is listed in the CWGC as 'G C Green'. He was a gunner in the Royal Garrison Artillery, and is buried in Congleton:

http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_details.aspx?casualty=2746957
Census information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk

Offline JustinL

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Re: Germany: George Green, pork butcher
« Reply #2 on: Wednesday 26 March 08 08:30 GMT (UK) »
Hello Bethgem,

Charles George Green (aka Johann Michael Gruen) became a naturalized British subject in 1931 (see attached exert from the the London Gazette of 5 May 1931).

His naturalization papers are held at the National Archives in Kew (HO 144/13086). Follow this link:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0335/

This file appears to be closed until 2031. You should nonetheless make enquiries about access - it's hardly going to endanger national security!

There is another file (HO 45/12970) relating to the claim of German nationality of Charles Green from the period 1918 to 1928. I think this refers to your ancestor - remember he was recorded as Charles George Green in the 1891 census. Follow this link:

http://www.rootschat.com/links/0333/

There's plenty to keep you going here.

Good luck,

Justin




Offline lesleyhannah

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Re: Germany: George Green, pork butcher
« Reply #3 on: Wednesday 26 March 08 08:44 GMT (UK) »
Hi Bethgem

I agree with Justin. I've applied for 'closed' files from the National Archives in the past - you sometimes have to wait a while before permission is granted, but I've never had access refused. Occasionally, the naturalisation papers have very little information on them, but many of them are real treasures, giving information that you'll never get anywhere else.

For example many of the papers I've seen have asked the question, Why do you want to come to this country - the answers may not always be true but they're always interesting. They usually give the names of the parents, and where they were born. They also often name other relatives already in England. Also they have referees who say how they know the immigrant - and these are often relatives by marriage etc.

If you can get to Kew yourself (or find someone to go for you), you can photograph the files while you are there - the cheapest option. Otherwise you can have them posted to you which can be expensive if it's a big file, but well worth it if it's a vital piece of your family puzzle.

Good luck
Lesley

Offline Bethgem

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Re: Germany: George Green, pork butcher
« Reply #4 on: Wednesday 26 March 08 13:27 GMT (UK) »
Thank you. All of you. I am looking forward to doing the searches. Those links will be very helpful. Thank you, many times.

 :)
Green (Grün) - Hohenberg, Württemberg, Germany
Weber - Ingelfingen, Germany
Also in Congleton, Cheshire, UK

Offline Bethgem

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Re: Germany: George Green, pork butcher
« Reply #5 on: Wednesday 26 March 08 20:18 GMT (UK) »
Hi, I just wanted to tell you that I have applied for a review to access the record of my grandfather's nationalisation, and they say it will take 20 days. I will be wanting it by post and never mind the cost.

I have tried to find a record of when they, Charles George Green and Fredericka Weber, his fiance, came to England. Not having anything other than their names and dates of birth and when and where they married, in England, I suppose it is not possible to find their immigration record. Any tips?

Still, when I am allowed access to grandfather's nationalisation record it just might give me some more clues and information that will help to find when they came here. As to why they came here, well if that question is not shown and answered on the papers then I will never really know. Waiting the 20 days starts from here  :)
Green (Grün) - Hohenberg, Württemberg, Germany
Weber - Ingelfingen, Germany
Also in Congleton, Cheshire, UK

Offline JustinL

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Re: Germany: George Green, pork butcher
« Reply #6 on: Thursday 27 March 08 08:13 GMT (UK) »
To find an exact date you would need to find the right ship's maifest. To even start that search, you'd need to know their port of departure and port of arrival.

My ggf and two elder brothers came to London from Hamburg in the 1870s. They all missed the 1871 census, but the naturalziation papers of the middle brother confirmed his arrival in 1872.

Prussian bureaucracy dictated that everyone had to be officially registered in the town of residence. (These laws still apply today.) The wonderfully helpful archivists in Hamburg were able to dig out my ggf's registration card from 1869. The card recorded one short trip to London, and then a final departure in 1876.

Even armed with a date of depature, I cannot find a conclusive match on a ship's manifest. The main problem is that most people were listed by the initial of their first name and then the surname. So unless the name you are seeking is very unusual, you can never be sure that you have the right person.

My ancestors were undoubtedly evading seven years of compulsory military service in the Prussian army. Your Charles George would have probably already served his time. I imagine it was pure economics that drove them out.

I look forward to hearing how you get on.

Justin



 

Offline lesleyhannah

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Re: Germany: George Green, pork butcher
« Reply #7 on: Thursday 27 March 08 12:10 GMT (UK) »

My ancestors were undoubtedly evading seven years of compulsory military service in the Prussian army.

Hi Justin

Hope Bethgem won't mind me hijacking her thread for a moment, but I'm fascinated by your quote above.  My gggf had a German name - he married in Leicester 1885 and died four years later, so evaded all censuses. I therefore have no idea where he came from. I've always been puzzled by why he came to England, as I can't find any other relatives in Leicester - and none took over the care of his orphaned children. His age varies on the two certificates I have - his marriage and death, but I believe he was born about 1860. He didn't apply for naturalisation, so no clues there either. Your remark about evading military service has opened another possibility - that I knew nothing about. Is there anywhere I can get more information about this?

Lesley

Offline JustinL

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Re: Germany: George Green, pork butcher
« Reply #8 on: Thursday 27 March 08 13:47 GMT (UK) »
Hello Lesley,

What are you hoping to find out?

The laws themselves are available on the internet in German.

The Prussian Military Laws and Bye-laws of 1867 stated that the seven years of military service were to begin on 1 January of the year in which a young man turned 21. Further laws were implemented in 1872 following German unification.

One of my ggf's nephews returned to Hamburg after a period abroad four weeks before his 21st birthday (1899). He left for London two weeks later; his registration card bears the note that he was to be arrested should he return to Hamburg.

Evasion of military service was more usual in areas annexed by Prussia.

Hope this helps, Justin

PS What was your gggf's name?