Author Topic: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw  (Read 13418 times)

Offline trot30

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Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
« on: Friday 05 March 10 20:48 GMT (UK) »
Can anyone help me

Im trying to find Robert Edwards the fuller. he had 7 sons. Edwards was the first born 1768, he later moved to cefnddwysarn near Bala (i think)

next was Robert born 1775 died 1863.

another son moved to blaenau ffestiniog.

Can anyone fill the gaps in for me please
Llanfor, Llandderfel, Llanycil, Llangywer, Llanuwchllyn, Cefnddwysarn.

Offline Rol

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Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
« Reply #1 on: Saturday 06 March 10 16:15 GMT (UK) »


The tree refers of course to the owners,  but you might still like to take a look at the Powell/Salusbury of Bryn y Barcut pedigree that W. Bezant Lowe printed on pp.364-5 of vol 2 of his Heart of Northern Wales (HNW2),  published at Llanfairfechan in 1927.  He also gives a brief description there of the house.  Perhaps you have already seen it.

Bezant Lowe refers to Bryn y Barcut as being in Llangernyw.  But to judge by the 1880 OS map shown on the Old Maps site (if one follows the dotted boundary lines),  I think that both Bryn y Barcut and Pandy Bryn y Barcut were just inside the parish of Llanfair Talhaearn (on the east bank of the river).  It is true that they were much closer to Llangernyw church,  and the occupiers probably often went there in preference to Llanfair TH.*  Perhaps someone with better local knowledge than mine can confirm or correct this point.

A deed in the Eriviat collection at the NLW does rather seem to confirm it:

Quote
287.

1770, March 13

1. Elizabeth Salusbury of Bryn y Barcutt, co. Denb. (now of Holywell, co. Flint), spinster

2. John Humphreys of Ruthin, co. Denb., gent.

LEASE for 1 year of a capital m. called Bryn y Barcutt and a m. and fulling mill in p. Llanfair Talhaiarn, Bryn y Ta….e, p. Gwytherin, and Hendre, p. Llansanan, all in co. Denb.

The scheduler here was probably intending to communicate the following meaning in respect of parish locations,  at least as it seems to me:

Quote
LEASE for 1 year of:

(1)  a capital m[essuage] called Bryn y Barcutt and a m[essuage] and fulling mill in [the parish of] Llanfair Talhaiarn;

(2)  Bryn y Ta….e  [in the parish of] Gwytherin;  and

(3)  Hendre [in the parish of] Llansan[n]an;

all in [the] co[unty of] Denb[igh].

The Elizabeth Salusbury who was conveying the property in 1770 is doubtless the heiress who married Robert Jocelyn RN at Bath six years later,  as recorded by Bezant Lowe,  probably relying on this from among the extracts he printed on pp.506-11 of HNW2 from the -- apparently now lost -- diary of Robert Wynne of Garthewin (with its appreciative appended comment!):

Quote
[1776]  Nov. 13.  This day was married at Bath,  Miss Salusbury of Bryn-y-barcut to Mr Jocelyn,  an officer in the Navy.  She is a very fine woman.

Elizabeth's own daughter Caroline became an heiress in her turn and married one of the Ffoulkeses of Eriviat.  That presumably accounts for the 1770 Bryn y Barcut deed ending up in the Eriviat collection at the NLW.  In fact it is surprising that there are not more deeds there for the same reason.  It looks as though some must be elsewhere or missing -- which is a pity,  because they could provide a string of documents showing tenants' names,  thereby revealing for how long Robert Edwards's family rented the fulling mill.  Still,  the 1770 deed could merit a glance,  if the opportunity arises to see it.

The other thought I had is that Elizabeth's father John Salusbury of Bryn y Barcut (d.1768),  an attorney-at-law,  was notoriously litigious;  so it is possible that at some point he had the need to call on one or more of his tenants to give evidence as Chancery deponents -- which would have had the useful consequence of a witness having to state his/her age.  I seem to recall that Cledwyn Fychan,  then of the NLW,  wrote an article partly about Salusbury's law suits some years ago -- perhaps in the NLWJ or in the Denbighshire Historical Society's journal.  That could no doubt be easily checked.


Rol



*  [ADDED 08.03.10]  I have now located the article by Cledwyn Fychan mentioned in the last para of this post (for details of which see my Reply 7 below),  and I see that he held a similar opinion about the parish boundary:

Quote
Er mai ym mhlwyf Llanfair Talhaearn y saif Bryn-barcud,  tua Llangernyw y mae'r dyfna naturiol oddi yno,  a thuag yno y dylid edrych gyntaf,  efallai  [NLWJ 1981, p.189]





(Crown and other relevant copyrights acknowledged, including - but without limitation to - census information from wwwnationalarchives.gov.uk)

Offline LeeW

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Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 07 March 10 21:26 GMT (UK) »
Headstone in Llangernyw (Robert died in 1861 not 1863):



(C) Copyright LeeW

Wetton, Matthews, Sutton, Goodwin, Clarkson, Allman of Staffordshire
Morris, Daniel, Roberts, Lewis, Owen, Jones, Evans of Denbighshire (Llangernyw, Gwytherin, Pandy Tudur, Llansannan, Llanfair TH, etc)

http://www.wetton.net/mytree2

Offline trot30

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Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 07 March 10 22:07 GMT (UK) »
Great ...THanks for that. ... do you know of any of his brothers or sisters? or maybe his fathers, also a robert edwards of same address any info ?? 1737-1834
Llanfor, Llandderfel, Llanycil, Llangywer, Llanuwchllyn, Cefnddwysarn.


Offline Indigogirl

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Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 07 March 10 22:53 GMT (UK) »
Can you translate what is on the headstone please?

I'm following with great interest

Thx
Edwards, Williams, Griffiths, Gittins in Denbighshire, Merionethshire
Edwards, Price/Peirce in Monmouthshire.
Kosh in London and Newcastle.
Turnbull, Elder, Forster in Newcastle
Smart, Raycord/Record in Rowley Regis,Staffs
Edwards in Pontefract, Castleford, Matlock
Frith, Gregory in Matlock
Wadsworth, Shephard in Brotherton
Fagan, Lawless in Sheffield

Offline trot30

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Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
« Reply #5 on: Sunday 07 March 10 23:15 GMT (UK) »
Robert Edwards

Pandy Bryn Barcut

yr hwn a gladdwyd - who was buried

Tachwedd 30 - November 30th 1861 86 years old

 

Also his wife Anne

 yr hon a gladdwyd - who was buried

Ebrill 14 - April 14 1822

45 years old

 

Also Ellen his second wife 

yr hon a gladdwyd - who was buried

Ionawr 29 - January 29 1863

79 years old

 

well goodbye to favourite _______? 

-----------------------------------------------------------

i cant make out what the last word is.
Llanfor, Llandderfel, Llanycil, Llangywer, Llanuwchllyn, Cefnddwysarn.

Offline Indigogirl

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Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
« Reply #6 on: Sunday 07 March 10 23:27 GMT (UK) »
Thanks for the translation.

Edwards, Williams, Griffiths, Gittins in Denbighshire, Merionethshire
Edwards, Price/Peirce in Monmouthshire.
Kosh in London and Newcastle.
Turnbull, Elder, Forster in Newcastle
Smart, Raycord/Record in Rowley Regis,Staffs
Edwards in Pontefract, Castleford, Matlock
Frith, Gregory in Matlock
Wadsworth, Shephard in Brotherton
Fagan, Lawless in Sheffield

Offline Rol

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Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
« Reply #7 on: Monday 08 March 10 04:11 GMT (UK) »


Excellent to have that gravestone image up -- Lee's ever-growing database of MI photos is certainly a great resource to have available via the web.

OK,  I have now had a chance to unearth the article by Cledwyn Fychan (see foot of Reply 1).  It was in the National Library of Wales Journal,  Vol. xxii, No.2,  Winter 1981,  pp.187-213.  It concerned the literary interests and family connections of three local men.  It is a fascinating piece,  containing the fruit of very thorough genealogical research and deep local knowledge (though NB it is written in yr iaith nefoedd).

One of the three men concerned did indeed live at Bryn y Barcut,  but he was the father of the John Salusbury mentioned in my earlier post,  i.e. Salusbury Powell (d.1734).  I think he was the one who had an especially litigious streak.  His wife Elizabeth's mother was a Wynne of Garthewin,  and the particular lawsuit mentioned in the article concerned the 1728 will of Margaret Wynne,  aunt both to Powell's wife and to her first cousin Robert Wynne of Garthewin,  Chancellor of the Diocese of St Asaph.

Many papers about this chancery suit survive in the Garthewin collection at Bangor University Library's MSS Dept -- much more accessible than the main court archives at TNA,  for anyone living in North Wales.  The refs. cited in the article are Garthewin Nos. 1213,  1277 and 1294;  but there may well be other relevant documents in the collection too.  Fortunately for later researchers (though not for the fortunes of the litigants),  the case reached the stage of taking local depositions by commission,  and on p.189 Cledwyn Fychan cites a sentence from the testimony of one of the maids at Bryn y Barcut as evidence of her master's reputation:

Quote
Margarett Wynne had a great esteem for the def't Eliz'th the wife of Salusbury Powell and she was sorry for the low condition her sd husband [Salusbury Powell] had brought her to by his lawsuits and crossness.

The Bryn y Barcut people were evidently involved in quite a number of 18th c. lawsuits,  so if the Edwards family were tenants of the Pandy for a good length of time,  it would certainly be worth seeing whether any of them were called upon to make depositions.


Rol


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Offline trot30

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Re: Edwards Pandy bryn y parcyt Llangernyw
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 10 March 10 16:49 GMT (UK) »
Rol
How or where would i find that info?

i know the definetly lived there, and cant for the life of me find the other 5 of the 7 children he had,   the gravestone is one of the children im looking for, Edward was his brother (my great not sure now many times grandfather ) im trying to find his brothers and sisters. can you help? please..

also any info about robert edwards (their father) 1737ish died aged 97 married ann ellis daughter of a yeoman butcher would be of massive help to me.
Llanfor, Llandderfel, Llanycil, Llangywer, Llanuwchllyn, Cefnddwysarn.