Author Topic: Louis Selig  (Read 9440 times)

Online JustinL

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Re: Louis Selig
« Reply #9 on: Wednesday 15 December 10 14:32 GMT (UK) »
Hello lynnv,

What were names of the fathers of Louis and Rebecca as recorded on the marriage cert?

I cannot explain why Rebecca Selig (or Kusel) was never recorded in a census. However, I am not convinced that Mary and Rebecca are one and the same person. See post below.

Louis and David were using a classic form of patronymic name used by German Jews born in the early 19th century. That is to say, Selig was their father's given name, not a middle name.

Looking at the various census records, I am virtually certain that they came from the town of Boitzenburg, formerly in the Duchy of Mecklenburg-Schwerin.

I have had reason to research the Jewish communities of Mecklenburg and can tell you that a Kusel family was documented in Boitzenburg.

In 1813, Kusel Samuel (b. 16 Aug 1751 Burgpreppach, Bavaria) formally adopted the name Samuel Kusel. That's right, he simply transposed his two names, a common practice.

His son was Selig Kusel (i.e. Selig son of Kusel), and was recorded as a trader in Boitzenburg from 1809.

Have you come across the Barons de Kusel? It's looks very likely that Arthur Adolph Kusel and Samuel Selig Kusel (!!), who were both granted licence to use the title in 1892 and 1893 respectively, were either younger brothers or cousins of Louis and David.
I believe that Fanny Kusel, b. 1828 'Bortzenburg', who was living in Glasgow in 1851, was their younger sister.

Is any of this new to you?

Justin

Online JustinL

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Re: Louis Selig
« Reply #10 on: Wednesday 15 December 10 15:53 GMT (UK) »
What was the name of the officiating minister in 1858?

Have you obtained the birth certs for any of Fanny's siblings?

Although the vast majority of Jewish women with the secular name Mary had the Hebrew name Miriam or Malka, there are instances of women with the secular name Mary Ann having the Hebrew name Rebkah, i.e. Rebecca.

In order to be married legally in accordance with the rites of Jewish faith, permission had to be granted by the Chief Rabbi. Permission would only be granted if both bride and groom could provide documentary evidence that they were Jewish. This may have been impossible for immigrants. For most of the 19th century, Nathan Marcus Adler, was Chief rabbi and he was particularly strict about the requirements.

It is possible that Louis and Mary Ann (Rebkah) were married in the eys of God, but not legally, prior to Fanny's birth. Then by 1858, they were either able to prove their Jewishness, or the restrictions were relaxed, and they married legally. This would explain why Rebecca's maiden name was Selig Kusel.

Justin

Online CaroleW

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Re: Louis Selig
« Reply #11 on: Wednesday 15 December 10 22:33 GMT (UK) »
Hi Justin

That is very interesting indeed.  What would have been the position here if Mary was not Jewish?

Could they have married in a non-Jewish ceremony and then if Mary converted to the Jewish faith, married again in a synagogue?

Do you know if aliens were prevented from marrying until naturalised - although I am losing faith in that theory if Louis was naturalised in 1853 I doubt they would have waited another 5yrs

Mary was born in London and at the moment, no marriage can be found prior to Fanny's birth so we are waiting for Lynn to post the scan of the birth cert with Mary's maiden name which Lynn is unable to decipher

Census Information is Crown Copyright, from www.nationalarchives.gov.uk
Carlin (Ireland & Liverpool) Doughty & Wright (Liverpool) Dick & Park (Scotland & Liverpool)

Online JustinL

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Re: Louis Selig
« Reply #12 on: Thursday 16 December 10 07:42 GMT (UK) »
First, a few clarifications on the Barons.

Samuel Selig (later de Kusel) was born in 1849 to Louis and Mary/Rebecca. He married an Italian woman, Elvira Chini in 1876.

Arthur Adolphus de Kusel was the son of Adolf de Kusel (b. 1836 Mecklenburg-Schwerin), who had been granted the title Baron in 1892.

According to FindMyPast, there was also an umarried Lea Kusel, b. 1839 Germany, living in Liverpool in 1861. Louis' and David's sister?

Now, to your questions Carole.

If Mary had not been Jewish, conversion would have been a possibility. But, the difficulty may have been that Louis could not prove that his parents were Jewish. Therefore, although they may well have found a Rabbi to marry them, unless it was Rabbi authorised under British law to conduct a wedding, the union would have been illegal. Such clandestine weddings did occur; they are referred to as stille chuppah.

As for a Christian ceremony, I'm not sure. It was my understanding that couples wishing to wed had to produce baptismal certificates before they could be wed in a church. I have always wondered how my Jewish great-grandfather married in a church!

The registry office would have been the easiest option.

Immigrants/aliens were at liberty to marry whenever they wished to. However, a British woman marrying an immigrant would have actually lost her status as a British national, and have been regarded, under British law, as a foreigner.

Justin


Offline lynnv

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Re: Louis Selig
« Reply #13 on: Thursday 16 December 10 18:06 GMT (UK) »
PHEW
Its going to take me a month of sundays to sort this out. So many questions.
Sorry to have been away thought I had managed to scan certificates in and email them to myself but just tried to open them and I can't so I still can't post them on this site- will have to try again tomorrow.
Right Justin thank you so much this is what I wanted to hear-you ask was I surprised well I had a great Aunt who used to tell us about a German member of the family who had a title but grandmother couldn't stand her and would pooh pooh her so I have no details.
Marriage cert says married in the dwelling house 44 Lime Street according to rites and ceremonies of Jewis Religion in the prescence of David Davis, W Schreier, D M Isaacs(Minister), Louis Davis (Secretary) . There are no fathers names given for either bride or groom.
Wish i could let you see them. Thanks you so much ;D

Offline lynnv

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Re: Louis Selig
« Reply #14 on: Friday 17 December 10 13:27 GMT (UK) »
Hopefully I have now managed to scan in the marriage cert for Mary and Louis. Still working on Fanny's birth cert. ;)

Moderator comment: image removed.

Transcript:

ErrorSPAM
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]
25 July 1858 New Hebrew Congregation, Liverpool
Louis Selig Kusel age 42 bachelor, merchant of 44 Lime Street and
Rebecca Kusel age 36 spinster of 44 Lime Street.

Married at 44 Lime Street acc to rites & Ceremonies of Jewish religion
Witnesses David Davis, W Schreier

Signed D.M. Isaacs, minister
Louis Davis, secretary
 
No father names or occupations shown[/color]

Offline lynnv

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Re: Louis Selig
« Reply #15 on: Friday 17 December 10 13:32 GMT (UK) »
NOT VERY GOOD AT THIS AM I !!!!!!!!!!!

Offline lynnv

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Re: Louis Selig
« Reply #16 on: Friday 17 December 10 13:47 GMT (UK) »
Right hopefully this is how its done. Here is the part of Fanny's Birth cert which gives her mothers  maiden name but can anyone help me read what it is. :D

Online JustinL

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Re: Louis Selig
« Reply #17 on: Tuesday 21 December 10 07:30 GMT (UK) »
Hello Lynn,

You got there in the end.

It's not easy, is it? -oagen is fairly straightforward, but does it begin with H or K or something else?

Can you post the whle handwritten part of the cert, so that we can compare other letters?

You might also like to post to the 'Deciphering & Recognition Help' board
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php/board,425.0.html and include a link back to this thread.

I have discovered very little on the rabbi. Prof. Rev. David Myer Isaacs (b. 1810 Leeuwarden, Holland) was minister at the Liverpool New hebrew Congregation aka Hope Place Synagogue/Congregation.

He appears to have been a well-respected rabbi, so maybe that has something to do with wedding ceremony being permitted ... finally.

Justin