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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Lancashire => Topic started by: jacko-to on Tuesday 01 November 05 14:04 GMT (UK)
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Just found out that one of my relatives died 1924 in "Ecclesston Mental Hospital" - they did have lovely terminology in those days.
Lokking at the liverpool familia site for hospital records it looks like permission has to be sought from the NHS trust that owns the records before the Library will look them up.
Would anyone know if I still have to get permission if the person has died?
Thanks
Angie
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Hello Angie
if i was you i would check with the library that holds the records.To confirm that,as far as i know there are a lot of records not available to the public after a certain year.Yours might come after that year,only certain establishments can obtain them. If you don't ask you wont know ;D
Celia
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Thanks Celia,
I'll get on it next week.
Angie
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JACKO 2..
Not meaning to be irreverent,you will need the patience of a Saint,plus a triple endorsement from J.C himself,but I do believe it has been done!
Goggy. ;)
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Thanks Goggy,
I am fully instilled with confirdence :'(
Anyone out there got a letter from the Holy Ghost?
Is it really that bad?
Still I've been at this family for three years, still a novice but good things come to those who wait ;D
Angie
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Jacko-to,I'm a learner myself Angie,my search started with a person who was in a mental home,Winwick,tried some addresses given on this site;seem's there is a 100 yr block on the info,and even if you can prove your kinship, getting through to those who can release it is a job for a Genius! Which I am not,however,I get lost in most red tape territories so give it a go.
Lot's of luck,Goggy. ;)
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Thanks for that info goggy. I've been trying to find Winwick for ages. Apparently my g grandma was admitted suffering from milk fever (post natal depression?) and never came out. nice huh!
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The original records for Rainhill are at Liverpool Central Library. You require a reader ticket to access them ( Free but take 2 proofs of ID one with your address) and those under 100 years old require proof of identity to access them. They are well worth looking at as they are so detailed. The 1890 - 1900 ones even have before and after photographs. Give yourself plenty of time as they it takes the staff quite a while to access them as they are in a remote part of the archives.
:)
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Thanks for the info Annie. I'm coming to the Pool soon to visit family so I will have a look then. Will let you know how I get on!
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Forgot to mention the 100 year restriction applies to the date when admitted. The ancestor I was checking died there in 1917 but was admitted 1887 so we had no problems in accessing the records. If your relative was admitted before 1906 you will have no problems. I don't know if you have done any research into the hospital but there were two parts. The later addition was called the annex and that was for the "No hopers". Once transferred there they would be there for life. If you have accessed the information from the census it would indicate this.
:)
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I had an Ancestor at Rainhill (GG Grandfather). A cousin of mine went there and got to see all of the original records and made copies of them all - including handwritten notes and a photo. He was admitted there in the 1880's
Anita
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We were not allowed to photocopy but were allowed to take digital photos. Some of the older volumes are quite fragile.
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my mother died in Rainhill Hospital in 1978 so I suppose I stand no chance
Doreen :(
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Ring the library in Liverpool and ask. I have the number if you don't. As it is your mother they may take your birth certificate as evidence. When I was there two weeks ago we had a bit of a delay because the lift to the archives broke down and while we were waiting the librarian explained to us about viewing the closed records. I think you must prearrange to visit because they have the records ready with all but your designated record covered and you can only look at that page.
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The hundred year ruling no longer applies to records found in record offices (as opposed to government records found in The National Archives) as the Freedom of Information Act now allows for people to request access to such records. Record Offices will consider every request on their own merits. Older records that were closer to the hundred year ruling anyone can now see.
Regards
Valda
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thanks ladies I will see what I can find out, will let you know what happens
Doreen :)
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I was actually born whilst my mother was a patient in Rainhill in 1945.On my birth certificate it states St Marys Hospital St Helens--whether or not this was just put on birth certificates or whether my Mother got transferred for the birth I don't know.This subjected has got me intrigued will have to do more investigating.
Dotty
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I have been told by my colleague that St Mary's hospital was at the back of Lowe House(St Mary's) Church in St Helens. Think that part of the building is still there.
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Thanks for the reply
Dotty
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OOPS!
I somehow have missed all these messages - poor old Mary Ann died in the Annexe.
Thanks for the info - I've been meaning to go to central library since Xmas (lazy as I am) but I think I'll make the effort now.
I'll let you know how I get on.
Angie
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The only hospital in St.Helens town centre at that time was The Providence Hospital in Tolver Street. Part of it is still standing and now converted into flats. No maternity wards there though...The Maternity Hospital at that time was Cowley Hill Maternity Hospital, which was on Cowley Hill Lane, St. Helens..
In later years patients from Rainhill Hospital would probably have gone to Whiston Hospital to have their babies.
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Jacko-to
As far as I know Rainhill Hospital was never referred to as Eccleston Mental Hospital..it was always known as Rainhill County ??Asylum.
There was a hospital called Eccleston Hall which still stands and has been a Sanitorium and Elderley Persons Home. Maybe in the 40's it was used as a Mental Hospital (you know the war and things)
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PS Jacko-to
St.Helens Archive Library would give you details of Eccleston Hall and its previous uses.
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Oh doesn't this genealogy lark get you pondering!!!! Aways been told I was born at St Marys --decided to get my birth certificate out ---where born-----1a Elton Head Road St Helens U.D can anybody solve this query now? Would this be the address of Rainhill Assylum?
Dotty
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You could ask here
http://www.dwnw13400.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/index.htm
Regards
Valda
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One entrance to Rainhill Hospital was on Elton Head Road the other on Rainhill Rd. The only building that is left is now called the Scott Clinic and its right on the corner so presumably 1a. I remember a neighbour of mine being treated there about 20years ago for post natal depression but now it is a secure unit. It may be that the buiding was the 'hospital' wing. I know an old lady who was a nurse at Rainhill for many years, I will ask her what happened to maternity cases.
I have been told by a number of old St Helens residents that St Mary's Hospital did exist and was run by nuns just as the Providence Hospital was.
In the 1891 census Rainhill Hospital is described as Eccleston Asylum presumably because it was within the old Eccleston Parish.
Eccleston Hall Hospital was a Sanotorium.
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The following link may be useful:-
http://www.mdx.ac.uk/WWW/STUDY/4_13_TA.htm#Rainhill
There is also a link to another site called The Colonade which may be helfull too.
Angie
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The entrance to the 'Main' (latterly known as the Sherdley Division) was from Elton Head Road. The entrance to the 'Annexe' (latterly known as the Avon Division) was on Rainhill Road. The building which is now part of Scott Clinic was until recently known as Martlew Day Hospital. Before that I don't know. Rainhill Hospital had its own Theatre complex and facilities to look after physically sick patients so maybe in the 1940's the patients had their babies at the hospital. Certainly in later years those patients went to Whiston Hospital.
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thanks churchmouse and jacko-to for your replies
Dotty
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Bless me!
What a wealth of info,havent been following up on my Rainhill interest because of all the irons in the fire!
Anyway,would like to pass this on and 'hear' your comments.
My rellie was in there from abt 1938,little bits of talk heard by young ears led me to believe it was caused by Husband's,whatever,such was not the case.He died 1927,she was left with 4 or 5 children still of school age,plus a home to pay for,rent most likely.4 rooms 2up,2down.
By all accounts she was a strict woman,and upright with it.Convent educated I think,and not employed at this time.
Nearby was an Irish Doctor,probably who knew of,her family.I suspect she called in a favour,and not being able to do anything else,used 'Asylum' instead of 'Convent!'
Her family were scattered to two places girl's to G'Ma's,boy's on their own in what used to be a local shop,she herself was in a 2 room flat over shops.
Exactly when she took refuge Idont know,she was offered 'freedom' on retirement age,she was a Laundry hand at 'Winnick',but declined,probably thoroughly institutionalised.
Hope I havent bored you, but Iwould appreciate your thinking on this!!
Goggy. ;) ;D
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I don't think many people would have sought refuge in an asylum in the 1930s which were pretty grim places, often with locked wards and very seriously ill people. When they shut the last locked ward at my local asylum when I was a teenager the remaining men were transfered to the psychiatric ward at Winson Green prison!
Considering there was no national health you would have to 'bribe' a doctor to refer you as mentally ill and then more doctors would have to continue to keep you in the asylum because they believed you were mentally ill so you would have to feign some element of mental illness (one of the treatments for which at the time was electric shocks).
Yes I do know the stories of young women who had had illegitimate children being forced into asylums and kept there and institutionalized but they were ususally young girls.
I also know there was a stigma in having a close relative in an asylum so I can understand what might be said to family members to make that situation as tenable as possible for them.
Unless you were a direct descendant of the woman I would think it exceedingly unlikely any of her case notes would be released either by the record office or the hospital which ever place held them for you to find out further information. It would need a request from one of her children or grandchildren, if none of her children were still alive.
Regards
Valda
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Lots of stories about the hospital and its patients!!! Pre 1952 there was little or no medication to help people with the symptoms of their illnesses. Yes, mental illness in a family was a stigma, but many of these patients were visited by their families for years and years..psychiatry was in its infancy and although not the best by todays standards the term asylum (place of safety) was the best available....sure there were young women who were put into the hospital because of a pregnancy related mental health problem, a serious problem even today but this type of patient is always freely referred to as being very common, it was not. Those patients and their families of not many years ago had little choice but to be admitted to places like Rainhill and Winwick, they were safer than their communities. Most of the patients from these hospitals were succesfully discharged into the community when these hospitals closed. Rarely to completely independent accomodation with many of them going to supported and residential accomodations.
With regards to patients bribing Dr's to be diagnosed as mentally ill, I find that very unlikely , the hospitals of the 1930's, as the writer said were pretty grim place. Since the introduction of the mental health acts then for patients to be transferred to prisons from a mental hospital would suggest that these patients were already detained by the courts. Not in recent years (50+ ) could informal patients be transferred to prison for reasons of hospital closure....
Lots of myths about mental patients and hospitals.
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This site may answer questions about access to the records for Rainhill and
Merseyside hospitals generally.
http://archive.liverpool.gov.uk/leaflets/hospital.html
Marie.
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Oh dear - I have not read the death certificate properly - SORRY
Mary Ann's death certificate states "County Mental Hospital Annexe, Eccleston, Whiston RD".
Have been in touch with Liverpool records office today & they have asked me to get permission off NHS Trust 5 (Whiston), have written today - will let you know how I get on.
Angie :)
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Thank you for your replies and comment's,also for new light on a old problem.This rellie was my G'Ma,alway's spoken of in hushed voice's,but little ear's pay more attention in such circumstance's don't they!
She was from a somewhat influential family,I'm sorry that I may have inferred bribery,such was not my intention.More acceptable perhaps to say co-operative ?To ease the condition,and I suppose, from the memories of two people, she would have been just the person to keep up the act!
Thank you all again.
Goggy. ;) ;D
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Poor Grandma - Goggy! :-[
She must have been beside herself - left with no man - all the children - expected to work but no idea of how to do it - or even what to do ! She was not the only one in that position .... terrified of going to the Poor house - there was such a stigma attached to that in those days ..... :-[
better to be sickly - more likely to get sympathy and help ..... ! maybe she thought it was an easier way out !
Annie :-\
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G'Day Annie!
Yeah,that's what Ive worked out after recent info,so poor Isaac deserves my most abject apologie's.
I was also made aware of the Poor Law people's antics at an early age,and think that the distribution of G'Ma's possession's was in part for fear of those people.
One thing I do know,when her parent's are made known to me,I'm in for a suprise,G'Ma+G'G'Ma were chalk+cheese ,one a typical Seaman's Guv'nor,the other used to finer thing's and with a totally different attitude!
That is something yet to come!!!
Goggy. ;) ;D
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We need to get going on them again Goggy ! ::)
Give me a shout if I can help !
Annie :) :) :)
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Thank you Annie,you've been very patient.
Trouble with this lot is that all that was written or learned by me has all been turned inside out!
Richard Binstead has done a sterling job as far as he was able,but we are :-[his first Binsteed's.
Hence,(nice word that)my laxity in telling you the story.
G'Ma has had to wait a while for her turn as that,s the 'Prendy' side.
Believe me,they are an ARMY!!
Thank,s again Flower.Be well.
Goggy.
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I am interested in learning more about the history of the Rainhill Assylum, if anyone could email me with information it would be greatley apreciated.
Sorry for the off-topic post :)
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Hi Subwoofer and welcome to RootsChat ! :)
Not sure what it is you want to know :-\ ..... but this site may give you some ideas and of course if you Google you'll come up with some others !
http://www.institutions.org.uk/asylums/england/LAN/rainhill_asylum.htm
Tell us what you would like to know ..... and maybe somebody can help !!
Annie :)
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Can anyone help me please. I am also looking for records on a patient James Henry Wood at Rainhill on the 1891 & Salford Workhouse on 1901 census. James Henry Wood was left orphaned in 1863 when his mother died and was cared for by an aunt until his marriage in 1874. It appears he may have been in and out of Rainhill as his family has grown between census.
1891 census, Rainhill Asylum, St Helens, Lancs
James Henry Wood Patient Married 40 Bookkeeper p.o.b. Unknown Lunatic
1901 census Salford Union Workhouse
James henry Wood Inmate Married 50 Corporation ledger Clerk Derbys Glossop-looks like "L" (lunatic) in end column
Are these two places the same?
As I am living in Australia can someone please let me know how and where to order these records via email.
Thanks so much,
Heather
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Hi Heather !
Try this site .... I believe the Liverpool Records Office holds the records ! at least it might point you in the right direction !!
http://archive.liverpool.gov.uk/leaflets/hospital.html
Annie :)
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Can I ask your opinion on an entry for Rainhill on the 1901 census?
My gtx2 gd, Joseph Clementson, died in the County Asylum, Winwick in 1904. Cause of death; General paralysis 2 years. Aged 59, occupation; Colliey Engineer.
He's not on the 1901 census in Winwick but there's a G Clementson, born England, aged 57/59? Occup. Colliery Engineer. Next to his occupation there are the intials in capitals ED. He's classed as "Lunatic".
He was born in 1844 so was 57 in 1901. Can I safely assume it's my Joseph who was transfered to Winwick when it opened, maybe after having a stroke?
My grandmother used to tell me that one of our ancestors had "Religious Mania" and used to recite the bible to people waiting at the station but I always understood that it was a woman. It was probably him unless there was more than one a bit off their heads.
Pat
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General paralysis 'of the insane' was ususally caused by syphilis. If that is the case with Joseph he would be in the latter stages of the disease when he was admitted to an asylum. His Winwick medical case record would give you details of any past treatment in any other institutions which would confirm whether he was the man in Rainhill in 1901. Within the doctors then known medical knowledge the case records would also give you details of what had caused Joseph's illness, its duration and symptoms.
The ED next to his occupation is nothing to do with Joseph. It is one of the later pencilled marks made by the statisticians when they worked on the census returns after they had been handed in.
Regards
Valda
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I don't think many people would have sought refuge in an asylum in the 1930s which were pretty grim places, often with locked wards and very seriously ill people. When they shut the last locked ward at my local asylum when I was a teenager the remaining men were transfered to the psychiatric ward at Winson Green prison!
Considering there was no national health you would have to 'bribe' a doctor to refer you as mentally ill and then more doctors would have to continue to keep you in the asylum because they believed you were mentally ill so you would have to feign some element of mental illness (one of the treatments for which at the time was electric shocks).
Yes I do know the stories of young women who had had illegitimate children being forced into asylums and kept there and institutionalized but they were ususally young girls.
I also know there was a stigma in having a close relative in an asylum so I can understand what might be said to family members to make that situation as tenable as possible for them.
Unless you were a direct descendant of the woman I would think it exceedingly unlikely any of her case notes would be released either by the record office or the hospital which ever place held them for you to find out further information. It would need a request from one of her children or grandchildren, if none of her children were still alive.
Regards
Valda
Hi Valda, i have just joined Roots today and havn't a clue how to get started, I don't know if you can help me, as i'm not so pc literate, I have just recieved today a death cirtificate whom I believe to be my ggggrandfather, who died in rainhill asylum annexe eccleston r.d 1903, do you know how I could find out more ?
t hanlon
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Hi T Hanlon
Judging by The National Archives database on hospital records
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=629&hospital=rainhill&town=&searchdatabase.x=27&searchdatabase.y=14
You need to contact Merseyside Record Office (which is basically Liverpool Record Office) where the records (admission and discharge 1851-1969, and clinical and patients 1851-1964 - the casebook records) for Rainhill Asylum are deposited.
http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Leisure_and_culture/Local_history_and_heritage/index.asp
Regards
Valda
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nudged for Vivwill.......allan
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I am just writing to find out about my auntie that was in rainhill hospital. Her name was julia mills born D.A.B 14/08/1914 she was addmitted to rainhill hospital in june 1942. she was born in Toxteth Liverpool i would like some information how she died or if she is still alive and if she is dead i would like to vist her grave. i have payed the researcher at the libary an they have Come up with nothing at the moment i know she spent all her life in rainhill any help or information would be appreaticed
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If she died in Rainhill she could be buried in St. Helens Cemetery! or her family may have buried her near to where she came from.
You need to find her date of death...(St. Catherines Records - or online if you're lucky) also look on the LDS site. If she is buried or cremated in St. Helens Cemetery then their records are all on line...
When you have her date and place of death then apply to that registry office for her death certificate...
Maybe someone with ancestory will have a look for her death.
I'll see if I can find anything on the cemetery site.
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thank you for your help im not verey good this is my first time on rootschat julia mills family never buried her as thay never visited her once she went in rainhill so sad
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If she died in Rainhill Hospital then most likely death registered in St. Helens or Prescot registry office. Did she live to an old age? How do you know about her? Do you know that you can go to local records office to look at biths marriages and deaths.
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we about aunt Julia as children iv got her birth details iv just received mesage from researcher saying thy have her in rainhall up to 1967 but no discharge i dint know were to look now if she is dead i relay would like to vised her grave x
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Hi T Hanlon
Judging by The National Archives database on hospital records
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/hospitalrecords/details.asp?id=629&hospital=rainhill&town=&searchdatabase.x=27&searchdatabase.y=14
You need to contact Merseyside Record Office (which is basically Liverpool Record Office) where the records (admission and discharge 1851-1969, and clinical and patients 1851-1964 - the casebook records) for Rainhill Asylum are deposited.
http://www.liverpool.gov.uk/Leisure_and_culture/Local_history_and_heritage/index.asp
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda, thanks for infomation, will follow it up
T Hanlon
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Is mothers maiden name Burke?
churchmouse
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yes my grandmother.s name was Julia Burke Julia mills mother,
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Can find her birth but no luck yet with death..need someone with ancestory or find my past credit...will keep looking.
If you try the Liverpool records office for her rainhill info then you might get a death date (if she died in Rainhill) difficult to get actual case records if indeed they have been kept.
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PS Did you pick up my private emails
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iv done all of that payed a resercher in liverpool libiray i receved a e mail today saying he could trace her up to 1967 but there was no dischrge found makes me moor determand to finde out moor somone must know what happend to her i feel so sad for the life she must have had thank,s again
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Try the rainhill records at Liverpool office,Good luck...
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hello
just wondered how the research went
have an ancestral relation who may have been there in 1911
she, Christiana Jones, disappears after 1901 census - possible "C. Jones" in 1911 but nothing further found in death records
:-\
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I posted a message here a few months ago with no success so I thought it was worth another go. My grandmother Mary Green nee Peacock, wife of William John Green, was admitted, I think in the late 1940s or early 50s and died in the hospital in 1976. I understand she was a long term patient. She was born in N. Ireland, so I would think she would have had at least some traces of her accent. Are there any old staff associations, or old staff(!) I could contact for help
as like a lot of others I'd be very glad of any assistance. Thanks!