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Ireland (Historical Counties) => Ireland => Topic started by: pettsy on Wednesday 21 December 05 13:54 GMT (UK)
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Hi all,
I am stuck to where my Irish ancestors were from, only their names and they were born in Ireland.
Someone told me you can tell where a person is and isn't from by their surnames.
Is this correct?
The names are DWYER and McMANUS.
If I could just narrow down my search abit, it could help me.
Thank you.
Pettsy
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Seasons Greetings Pettsy,
I love this comment of yours. Someone told me you can tell where a person is and isn't from by their surnames. Is this correct? I wish things were that simple. It would save the searchers who assist visitors to the Irish boards much hard work. Sometimes we are able to hazard a guess as in this instance. The McManus family may come from Tyrone. The Irish genealogy searchers bible may assist you - http://www.failteromhat.com/griffiths.php Please submit more information and dates. You will be surprised at the amount of information you receive from Irish searchers, a few of whom live in England. Those in England include the Irish searchers extraordinaire, Saz and Steve, distant relations of mine so the enthusiasm appears to run in families. Anyway we are all one big happy family here at RootsChat. I can make an educated guess at the names and assume both these families are from the Roman Catholic branch of the Christian faith.
Best Wishes, Christopher
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Hi Christoper,
I know it is very vague ;D
I wish it were that easy too.
All I know is they had a son in 1863, born in London, and my mothers granny was also born in London in 1873.
My mum's father was Catholic, so they must have been also.
Thomas Dwyer married Jane McManus, but I do not know if it was in Ireland or England.
I wish we asked more questions when he was alive. :-\
Thank you for showing an interest and giving me some advice.
Regards
Pettsy
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Hi Pettsy,
A couple of questions -
Are Thomas and Jane the ones who had the son in 1863 ?
Have you seen them on any censues- occasionally I have seen a place of birth on a census?
I have had a quick look and can't find anyone yet.
Heywood
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Hi Heywood,
Thank you helping me try and solve this puzzle.
Yes their son Thomas was born in 1863, and they daughter in 1873.
I had problems finding them on any census.
I found their son Thomas living with his sister, and his brother in law (she was married by then to a Richard Swift, and living in Chelsea, 1901 census)
I did find a Thomas Dwyer and a Ellen Dwyer, both born in Ireland (it does not state which part)
I know her name was Jane, but as her daughters middle name was Ellen it is a possability, and all I have found so far.
I just do not understand why they would not be on a census.
Pettsy
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Pettsy,
I have a feeling Chelsea in the 1900s was an area for the "well to do" or wealthier members of society. We need to consider the occupations of your ancestors. Were they servants, in trade or members of society? They must appear on a census somewhere. Are there any interesting first or second Christian names that may help us. Sometimes the second names are a pointer as in my case Hulme is my grandmother's maiden name.
Keep hunting, :)
Chris
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Hi Christopher,
I have lots of family on both my mum and dad's side from Chelsea, from early 1800's.
No posh ones.
On Carolines birth certificate, her father was a general labourer.
They lived at 129, Pimlico Road, Chelsea. (her mother could not write)
One Carolines marriage certificate 29th May 1892 at St Mary in the fields, in the city of Westminster, London. (it's in hangover square)
Her father was still alive and a general dealer.
I think I may have to get her brother Thomas birth certificate from c1863, and see where he was born, but on the 1901 census while he is living with Caroline it states he was born in Chelsea too.
If I look for the death certificates it will not say where they were born?? :-\
And Caroline was a servant when she married Richard Swift a musician.
Thank you for taking an interest and trying to help, I really would love to find out where they were from for my mother.Very kind regards.
Pettsy
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My mum has just received some certificates today from the FRC.
One of them is the death of her fathers brother, aged 12 weeks in 1903.
Present at death is Jane Dwyer nee McManus,Grandmother, so I now know she was alive in 1903.
And it was a Chelsea address.
She must on a 1901 census somewhere, but where :-\
If I find her death, I can find out her birth year at least.
Why can't be have the same system as the Scottish certificates >:(
Make it a lot easier.
Pettsy
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I still cannot find a death certificate for Jane Dwyer.
The last record I have of her is her grandson death in 1903.
Is there any way I could look for her death certificate?
There has to be a record of her somewhere :-\
Any ideas?
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Hi Pettsy
As Christopher has said it's impossible to be sure of someone's place of birth from their surname - if it was I should have been born in Mayo (rather than Yorkshire! ;D ).
What we can say is where a name originated or was particularly prevalent. I understand that the Dwyer family was common in Tipperary and the Mc Manus (or Mac Manus) family were possibly from Fermanagh. Fermanagh is of course next to Tyrone which Christopher referred to so it could be either.
I'm sure this won't help (sorry) but thought it worth mentioning just in case.
Best wishes
Ticker
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I understand it is impossible to tell where someone is from by their name, as my great gran was born in Chelsea, London (with an Irish name ;)) but I am so desperate to find out which part of Ireland they were from, any clues.
Thank you for your message, as any piece of info I receive is very helpful, now I know about Tipperary, it may help in my research.
Perts
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Hi Pettsy
I usually suggest the following sites, some of which may be of more interest than others for your surname search. They make help to direct you to an area where the names were most common.
The General Register Office of Ireland (http://www.groireland.ie/)
The Public Record Office of Northern Ireland (http://www.proni.gov.uk/)
Irish Roots (http://www.irishroots.net/)
The National Library of Ireland (http://www.nli.ie/)
Irish Genealogy (http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/frame_1024.cfm)
Genealogical Society of Ireland (http://www.familyhistory.ie/)
Irish Ancestors (http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/)
National Archives of Ireland (http://www.nationalarchives.ie/)
If you use the second last one (in bold) and search for the surnames it will show you where the name was most popular in the 1850s/1890s. You should see it confirms the Tipperary link for Dwyer.
I hope this helps.
Please let us know what you find.
Best wishes
Ticker
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Hi Pettsy
it's me again - please don't get your hopes up!
Do you know for sure that Thomas and Jane were born in Ireland and were not just of Irish heritage.
There is a Thomas and Jane whcih sometimes fits the bill andf others times does not.
I am sending a pm because there is such a lot of names for you.
Apologies if you have already been down this route!
Heywood
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Hi Pettsy,
Here is a site that may help you. Keep your eye on it as it is updated regularly. http://members.webone.com.au/~sgrieves/irish_burials.htm
Good Luck with your search
Chris
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Thank you Ticker,
Lots of links to keep me busy ;) I will let you know what I find out, fingers crossed.
Heywood I have sent you a pm.
My grandfather always said his mother was a " Little Irish lady" but we since found out she was born in Chelsea, London, so we presume her parents were Irish.
I cannot find their marriage at the FRC I looked from 1857 - 1864 (just after Thomas was born) but I will look again at other dates.
I cannot find Caroline b1876 on any Cenus with her parents either.
I have her birth, marriage and death certificate. But only can find her on the 1901 census :-\
Christopher, thank you, I have spotted 5 Dwyers on there, so I will keep on looking.
Thanks
Pettsy
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Hei Pettsy,
Here are loads of McManus marriages in Ireland
http://members.aol.com/manus/mcmmar01.htm
This McManus Directory includes a lot from Ireland
www.dallas.net/~mcmanus/mcm_dir.htm
Best Wishes, Chris
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Pettsy,
Probably the best site for getting an idea of the occurrence of a particular name in Ireland is the free surname search at:
http://www.ireland.com/ancestor/
And yes - it does confirm that DWYER was commonest in Tipperary, and MCMANUS in Fermanagh.
JAP
PS: Sorry Ticker - I've just noticed that you mentioned that site in your list.
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Pettsy,
As far as I can see, there is really no hard evidence to indicate that either of Caroline's parents came from Ireland.
I've searched and searched the censuses but without any luck. Your people - if they are in the England and Wales censuses - are very well hidden indeed.
I guess you saw the following (on FamilySearch):
Information removed due to copyright violation. See http://www.rootschat.com/forum/copyright.php for more details
RootsChat must deal with any breach of copyright by its members.
For some time the team of Copyright Editors has been removing breaches of copyright and sending detailed personal messages to the member that had posted the information. Due to the volume of posts and members this is now impractical. Messages in breach will simply be deleted and this notice posted. We apologise for any inconvenience caused but are sure you will appreciate the importance of this issue.
As you say, it probably would be worth getting Thomas's birth certificate - or at least see if you can find it in the indexes. It would be good to be able to confirm that he actually was born in Chelsea and ca 1863. And to see his parents' names and father's occupation.
JAP
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Hi I have sent you a pm.
I am sure my grandfather would have known where his grandparents were from. I know he said his mother was Irish, but that was because her parents were.
I can find no record of them in this country, ??? but I will continue looking.
Pettsy
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Hi Pettsy,
As you have Caroline's certificates- the best thing is to go for Thomas if you can find him to at least match up and confirm and get addresses. I hope you try the death details I sent you - that might indicate who Jane was living with.
I think I have said this before either here- or in a pm but if you feel they were Catholic - then try Catholic church records for the area. A lot are now deposited with local centres.
As for the 'Irish' connection- they may have arrived as young children and so consequently the origins are a bit blurred.
Even now people can be known as 'Irish' through parentage or religion. It can be confusing. There's a lot to do but don't give up.
Best wishes
Heywood
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Hi Heywood,
yes I am going to order Jane's death certificate (the death in Chelsea)
I am hoping her daughter Caroline Swift would have been present at death, if not one of the Swifts which would comfirm it is her, it may be her husband Thomas, or son Thomas.
I am going on the 17th Jan. I will let you know what I find ;)
I am also going to order Thomas (son) birth certificate.
And yet again search further for the marriage of Jane and Thomas ???
My grandfather was the youngest child, born in 1907, so if it is his grandmother she died when he was very young.
And Caroline died in 1937, two years before my mother was born, so she never got to meet her. Caroline also remarried and became a Reddey, after Richard William Swift died in 1928.
Hopefully if they did arrive as young children then I will eventually find a marriage certificate for them here, I will not give up ;)
I want to find out who they were, especially for my mother.
Thanks again for your help and advice.
Pettsy
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Pettsy -
this is one you might want to put on the back burner for a while and come back to when you have more information.
1851: Ann Street Plumstead,Kent
William Mc Manus Head 33 yrs Plasterer East Indies British Subject
Caroline wife 32 yrs Family Laundress Ireland
Mary Ann 10 yrs scholar Chelsea
Caroline 8 yrs scholar Chelsea
Jane 5 yrs Scholar Chelsea
Alfred George son 2 yrs born Chelsea
Ref: HO 107/ 1590 folio 278 pg 24
This Jane is the right age and of course there's the Caroline connection. However, your Jane not being able to write does conflict with 'scholar'.
As usual I can't find them again except that in 1871 (I think) Alfred seems to be a prisoner in Portland, Dorset. (Sorry!)
Everyone else seems to disappear.
Yours
Kath
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Hi Heywood, that is very interesting, and even more confusing ???
I agree with you on the name Caroline.
I just wish I could find their marriage certificate at least.
Both sides of the family ended up in Chelsea at that time, and the names and approx ages match.
I will do as I said order the certificate's and go from there.
I wish I could get there sooner now.
That is two of my ancestors I have found in prison now :o
Thanks Heywood.
Pettsy
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Hello Pettsy,
Re your PM, I am thoroughly puzzled as to why a section of my post was removed! Particularly given that similar postings are a commonplace and remain on this and other threads. But 'them's the breaks' and I have no intention of taking part in any copyright wars :o
Part of the information I posted was obtained from:
http://www.familysearch.org
where you too can see it.
I did not 'cut and paste' but posted the information in my own words.
Go to FamilySearch, then click on Census in the left hand menu. Select 1881 British Census. Enter Jane DWYER in the first name, last name boxes, then Thomas DWYER in the Head of Household boxes. Only two entries come up - one of them is in Middlesex and that is the relevant one.
I commented that the family looked likely but that a big problem was the absence of Caroline. I commented that hoh Thomas was a Hawker and compared this with the occupation of 38yo Thomas b Chelsea in the 1901 census (costermonger with 'coster' scored through and 'hawker' inserted).
I also posted information about the possible whereabouts of 17yo Kate DWYER from the 1881 census in the 1871 census. In this part of my post, I merely quoted the reference on the image (RG10/597) as we have been specifically advised to do. The family was in Southwark St Saviour, this Kate was a 'niece' aged 8, her birthplace was somewhere (which I could not decipher) in Surrey, and I could not decipher the surname of her aunt and uncle. Uncle James (43) was born in Scotland, and Aunt Kate (35) was born in Ireland.
Perhaps the problem was that I did not specifically state that the Crown asserts copyright over census information. I do so now by repeating the words which are at the bottom of the page on each thread, namely:
All Census Lookups are Crown Copyright, National Archives for academic and non-commercial research purposes only
I will PM this message to you in case I've somehow "blotted my copybook" again.
Regards,
JAP
PS: My Gran used to say that her late father-in-law was a 'tall black Irishman' from Cork. When I started on genealogy, I found from his employment records in the police force in Victoria Australia and from certificates that he was 5'7" and born in London ca 1825. His wife (they were cousins I've been told; married in Victoria in 1852) was also born in London ca 1832. I am hoping that, when the 1841 census becomes available, I might find them with their parents. If I do, it will be interesting to see whether their parents were born in England or in Ireland :)
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Hi Jap,
Thank you for explaining to me what was deleted.
I have looked at that census of Jane and Thomas, time and time again, but always put it on the back burner, as 1) They were not born in Ireland 2) Caroline is not there.
I cannot seem to find Caroline anywhere :-\
Kate Dwyer (niece) was staying in Walworth, Surrey ( now South East London)
Once I order the two Certificates, I may find some more clues ??? I hope so.
I will look for a marriage again, wheather it be Ireland or England. ???
Thanks
ps I was looking for a "Little Irish Lady" and you were looking for a "Tall black Irish man" ;D How things get exaggerated over the years eh!!
Pettsy
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Hi Pettsy,
Exaggerated over the years and also at the time!!
Ggpa Dennis/Denis SULLIVAN, the "tall Black Irishman", portrayed himself as a Detective of Police on Gpa's 1855 birth cert - not quite true as he'd been sacked (not surprisingly given his record) from the Water Police (let go due to a reduction in numbers is how the Police Archives diplomatically put it when I enquired!).
Let's hope the certificates do provide some clues.
JAP
PS: I even nostalgically thought, when I rang the Bells of Shandon in Cork, of Ggpa hearing them many years ago. What rubbish!!
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Hei JAP,
Genealogy is so much easier when searching for "a tall black Irishman". It means there is no need to waste time if you spot a red headed Scotsman, in a kilt, playing the bagpipes. Englishmen called Brown and Welshmen called Jones are easier to spot if you know their hat size, shirt collar size and size of their shoes.
Pettsy,
I am not terribly experienced in searching for "Little Irish Ladies" ::)
I prefer searching for the traditional dark haired attractive Irish Colleens. 8)
Seriously though, I have just been reading through the messages posted here Pettsy. The thought has just struck me that Chelsea may provide a little clue.
I feel Irish immigrants to the City may have drifted to the same areas where people from their home county had settled. They would have felt less homesick when they heard a familiar accent. Pettsy, I see you are in London. If there are no other means of confirming my thoughts a couple of visits to Irish clubs in London may throw some light on the subject. At least you will have a good nights crack.
All the Best, Chris
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Hi Chris
My dad often pops in Riley's pub at the worlds end, when my brother comes up to London for a Chelsea match. They meet for a drink.
I will ask him.
I have ordered Jane's death certificate, so I hope it will hold a clue ??? I should receive it Friday.
I am doing well with my Scottish research, and have gone back to the 1700's :o They have great certificates don't they. I am visiting Glasgow in May to go to the Mitchell Library, and visit the cemetery where my ancestors are buried.
My g grandfather on my dad's side was from Glasgow.
Going back to my mum's Irish roots, we may have to visit Dublin also, if not just for the pubs ;D
Pettsy
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Hi Pettsy, good luck with the certificate - hope it's a bit more of the puzzle solved.
Heywood
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I have just received Jane Dwyer's death certificate,
she died 26th Dec 1916, aged 72.
22 College Place, Chelsea, London.
She was the widow of Thomas Dwyer.
Daughter K.Rudd was present at the death.
Maybe it was Kate Dwyer, will had to look for the marriage of Kate Dwyer to a Rudd.
Also Thomas died before Jane, so will have to search for his death.
Still no clues to Irish ancestry though ???
Pettsy
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Hello Pettsy,
I wonder if this is going to be of help to you. The names Rudd and Dywer both appeared at the same time in four parishes in Ireland during the period of Griffiths Valuation - (1848-64) Kilkenny, Laois, Tipperary and Wexford. http://scripts.ireland.com/ancestor/surname/index.cfm
All the Best, Christopher
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Thanks Christoper,
That is interesting, I will have to look for a marriage cert to see where the Rudd's were from, or the parents.
Pettsy
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I have just found the birth of Jane Mc Manus, born March Q 1845 in Chelsea.
And a Caroline Mc Manus b.Mach Q 1843, also Chelsea.
I cannot find Thomas as he was born before 1837.And could have been born in Ireland ???
I will order the certs tomorrow, and find out Jane's parents names.
I cannot find a Fanny Dwyer, but the dates/age match up to Caroline Ellen, so maybe Fanny was her nickname ???
Pettsy
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I have now found a Katherine, could this be the "KATE" ::)
Maybe Kate is Short for Katherine.
What do you think?
Katherine was born June Q 1865 at St George Hanover Sq.
Looks like I may be getting somewhere at last, but as for Irish rellies ???I may have to go back another few decades. ;D
Pettsy
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No problem there Pettsy. Kate is short for Katherine
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Thanks Christopher, sounds promising.
Will report back next week when I receive the certificates.
Still can't find the marriage of Jane Mc Mauns and Thomas Dwyer ???
Jane was born 1845, it has to be somewhere ???
Pettsy
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Ok I now have just received Jane Mc Manus birth certificate and her sister Caroline.
Their parents were William Mc Manus and Caroline Kierman (hard to read, but that is what it looks like ???)
Both born in Chelsea.
William was a plasterer (like by dad ;))
I still cannot find the marriage of Jane Mc Manus and Thomas Dwyer, I have searched the books twice ???
And she was not a widow on her marriage cert, so she wasn't married before.
Don't think I will ever find out ???
Pettsy
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Hi Pettsy,
So do you think that jane daughter of William and Caroline is your Jane?
As I said, if they are catholic - it might be a good idea to search Catholic records of the area for the marriage.
Best wishes
heywood
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Hi Heywood,
I do now yes, as you said before there is the Caroline link too, and she named her daughter, my g grandmother Caroline.
I cannot makeout Caroline (ggg grandmother) name
Kiernan or Kierman ???
I will have to take it to the FRC on Thursday and see if they can read it.
Now if Jane Mc Manus was born in Chelsea, I am sure she would have married in Chelsea, but I cannot find it.
We now know Caroline Kiernan/Kierman was born in Ireland, and married William Mc Manus who was a East Indies British Subject.
Where did they marry, I have no idea.
It would have been late 1830's to early 1840's
I have searched them books to no avail!!!!!
But I will keep looking ;)
Also I couldn't find Thomas Dwyer, son of Thomas and Jane, but I did find a William Thomas Dwyer, so maybe his fist name was William after his grandfather, but he chose to call himself Thomas.
I wont know unless I order yet another certificate ???
Pettsy
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Hi Pettsy,
I thought that perhaps Caroline was Kiernan - I have seen it written Keirnan too. Anyway I looked that up for 1851 and there are some variations of that name etc but I was struck by an Owen Kiernan who was an Irish soldier at the Tower of London. (I don't think that he is necessarily anything to do with Caroline.)
However as we do jump from one idea to another I then entered McManus- it does alter your results whether you space between the Mc and M. I found at HO107/1472 folio 542 pg 10 Chelsea Royal Hospital :
Thomas McManus head 57 yrs scullery man b Ireland
Mary McManus 54 yrs Laundress Little Bedwing Wiltshire
Ellen McManus 16 yrs Laundress Chelsea
It occurred to me that perhaps this is the parents of William - a long shot but there is the East Indies connection - maybe military etc. Just another thing to mither you with!
Heywood
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There is the Ellen connection too.
I am going to pm you.
Thanks
Pettsy