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England (Counties as in 1851-1901) => England => Cornwall => Topic started by: deb usa on Saturday 11 March 06 20:16 GMT (UK)
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Hi all
Recently, I decided to try to trace some ancestors through my maternal line...thinking that it might be easier...NOt lol
I started with my gr grandmother Bessie Elizabeth Palmer (born abt 1877 in Truro...she married William Penfold)... her parents were John and Mary Palmer (nee Smith ) married in Truro 1876.
I found Mary Smith (Palmer) with her parents and siblings in the 1861 census:
George Smith b abt 1802 in London
Amelia Smith b 1816 in Falmouth
children:
Ann b abt 1842
William b abt 1844
Amelia b 1851
George 1853
James b abt 1855
MARY b 1858 (this is my Mary who married John Palmer)
I couldn't find them before that , so with some great help , we managed to locate them , still in Truro in 1851 but under the name Slack!!!!!
Amelia Slack b 1816 Falmouth
George Slack b 1811 London
Ann b 1842 Truro
William b 1844 Truro
Amelia
Marriage info says that George Slack married Amelia Knoriton in march 1842 in Truro.......
As I am following the female line... my next hurdle is finding out Amelia Knoriton/Slack/Smiths parents.... the confusing thing is that there is absolutely no KNORITON name to be found other than the reference to it in the marriage details of 1842. I have tried the surname every which way...Norton, Noriton< Knerton, Knaugton etc etc...with no luck.
I am hoping someone can solve this for me and maybe the mystery of the change of name from Slack to Smith.
I have not yet had a chance to order this marriage cert...but I am thinking that it may be the only way possible to find out the fathers name...
Hoping to hear from you soon
Thanks
Deb :)
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The entry in the civil registration is clearly typed and reads Knortton. Not much help because that clearly isn't a surname either.
Regards
Valda
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Valda
thanks for even responding... my whole message seems like a mystery and now Knortton...even more confusing...do you think cert is the only way to go....
i wonder who amelia was.....
thanks for looking ...i do appreciate your quick response
deb:)
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I do think the certificate is the only way to go. Without it you don't have George's father's name and occupation either or the witnesses and the exact place of marriage.
Coming forward on the censuses
1871 census RG10 2283 folio 43
St Mary Truro Cornwall
George Smith 68 London City, Middlesex, Head Married Hawker
Amelia Smith 55 Kenwyn, Cornwall, Wife Married
James Smith 15 St Mary, Cornwall, Son farm Labourer
Mary Smith 12 St Mary, Cornwall, Daughter
1881 census RG11 2312 folio 50
Charles St, Kenwyn, Truro Cornwall
Amelia Smith 66 Truro, Cornwall, Head Widow
Elizabeth Palmer 4 Truro, Cornwall, Granddaughter
1891 census RG12 1830 folio 46
No 4 Hoskins? Court Kenwyn Cornwall
Amalia Smith 75 Truro, Cornwall, Head Widow
Annie Palmer 10 Truro, Cornwall, Granddaughter
Deaths Sep 1894
Smith Amelia 78 Truro 5c 85
So she remains pretty consistent about her age.
Georges death is the more interesting of the two. I could find no George Smith deaths registered Truro between 1871 and 1881 so tried Slack.
Deaths Mar 1872
SLACK George 69 Truro 5c 118
which is consistent with George's age on most censuses.
Slack and Truro on FreeBMD gives you these entries between 1837 and 1872.
Marriages Mar 1842
SLACK George Truro 9 363
Births Dec 1842
Slack Ann Truro 9 312
Births Dec 1844
SLACK William Henry Truro 9 *17
Births Dec 1846
Slack Amelia Truro 9 326
Deaths Jun 1848
Slack Amelia Truro 9 200
Births Mar 1849
Slack Amelia Truro 9 369
Births Mar 1852
Slack George Truro 5c 200
Births Sep 1858
Slack Mary Truro 5c 180
Births Dec 1861
SLACK Emma Barton Truro 5c 167
Births Mar 1867
SLACK William Francis B Truro 5c 169
Deaths Sep 1870
Slack Emma Burton 8 Truro 5c 110
Slack Francis Bassett 3 Truro 5c 110
Deaths Mar 1872
SLACK George 69 Truro 5c 118
Having checked the censuses for Cornwall 1851 to 1881 Slack is a surname virtually unknown in Cornwall apart from your family in 1851. After the 1872 death entry there are no further Slack entries on FreeBMD in Truro (checked up to 1901) so it is reasonable to assume that these Truro Slack entries on FreeBMD are all in someway connected with your family.
Doing the same with the IGI you get
ANN SLACK
Christening: 06 SEP 1844 Truro, Cornwall
JAMES SLACK
Christening: 31 OCT 1855 Truro, Cornwall
MARY SLACK
Christening: 30 AUG 1858 Truro, Cornwall
all the children of George and Amelia and a singleton Slack in 1826 in a different place which probably has no connection.
George's occupation on the 1851 census is coachbuilder journeyman. Journeyman indicates he didn't have his own established business but nevertheless indicates he was a craftsman. This is very different from being a hawker on the later censuses. So it would appear something occurred between 1851 and 1861 that meant the family changed its surname from Slack to Smith at least on an everyday basis (you can call yourself any name you wish to) and finally completely to Smith after the death of George.
On the 1861 census George gives Holborn as his place of birth within London.
There is on the IGI a possible baptism at Holborn at roughly the right time, considering he moves his age around a bit.
GEORGE SLACK
Christening: 29 DEC 1803 Saint Andrew, Holborn, London
Father: WILLIAM SLACK
Mother: ANN
in all three children were baptised at the same time which doesn't mean triplets, just the family was a little lax in getting their children baptised - and therefore the George baptism could indicate an earlier birth as only one of the children is likely to have been born circa 1803.
JOHN SLACK
Christening: 29 DEC 1803 Saint Andrew, Holborn, London,
CHARLES SLACK
Christening: 29 DEC 1803 Saint Andrew, Holborn, London
with a later possible at St Pancras who might be the son of a different William and Ann
WILLIAM FRANCIS SLACK
Christening: 04 AUG 1816 Old Church, Saint Pancras, London
Father: WILLIAM SLACK
Mother: ANN
I can't see any of these as likely siblings on the 1851 census and besides you would really need George's marriage certificate for details about his father to see if this is a likely line or not.
I have done a search on the IGI for all Amelias baptised in Cornwall on the index (which of course has far from complete coverage) and can see no Amelia with a surname anything like Knortton (of course she could have had a baptism earlier or later than I checked). The marriage certificate should give further information - she might even have been a widow for instance! - which hopefully would make looking for her alot easier, but is probably just wishful thinking.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Valda
WOW!!!!!!!!! I am speechless...your info is absolutely fabulous and i really would like to say a big 'thank you' for your time and effort.
i need to let it all sink in...lol
i will definitely order the marriage cert of George and Amelia.... the Knorrton name is driving me crazy.... hopefully on the cert her fathers name might reveal the correct spelling.
Once again thank you sooo much ...I will keep you updated, and hopefully if you have or find anything else you will let me know.
Take care
deb
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Just a thought,and you have probably had before I did!
Could the 'K'be an initial for a second name.Making the surname Norton.
What prompted the thought was 'the clear spelling' ;D,copied from an earlier misprint perhap,s?
Goggy. ;)
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I think that she was Amelia Norton. If you look at Family History Online you will see that there were a lot of Norton people around the Truro area.
1842 was fairly early in the literacy stakes - dont let the typed copy of the original register fool you. Most of that date are hand written and the registrar may have had his own version of the spelling of Norton. He may simply have had a habit of putting a "K" in front of anything that started with an "N" if that makes sense. The double "t" is nothing really - one of the names I am researching is "Mutton" and that can sometimes be written with one "T".
Fizzy
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And--then there's Knaughton!
Should I just be quiet for a while???
Goggy. ;) ;D
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Valda, I've puzzled over this whole story to no avail :( However, re one of the SLACKs you found - Emma Barton SLACK b Truro 1861, d (as Emma Burton SLACK) Truro 1870 - I came across the following in the IGI:
Emma SLACK or BURTON, bap 3 Oct 1862, Truro, parents Joseph SLACK or BURTON and Ann.
Another SLACK in Truro going under an alias?
Incidentally, the 1803 baptisms in Holborn in the IGI list the ages of the children of William SLACK and Ann - John 7, Charles 3, and George 1.
JAP
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Jap
my pot shot at explaining Emma Barton/Slack is that she would be an illegitimate child of Ann Slack/Smith who was not married to Joseph Burton/Barton and as far as I can tell didn't marry him. I think this is Ann's marriage (she got around to it in the end)
Marriages Dec 1870
Bassett Francis Truro 5c 273
SMITH Ann Truro 5c 273
1871 census RG10 2283 folio 64
Back Lane Kenwyn Cornwall
Franas Bassett 28 Helston, Cornwall, Head Married Butcher
Ann Bassett 28 Truro, Cornwall, Wife Married
Annie Bassett 7 Truro, Cornwall, Daughter
I imagine still to find is a Slack Bassett birth registration for daughter Annie to go with her brother's birth and death registration.
Births Mar 1867
SLACK William Francis B Truro 5c 169
Deaths Sep 1870
Slack Francis Bassett 3 Truro 5c 110
same quarter as Emma's death registration
Slack Emma Burton 8 Truro 5c 110
We still await the marriage certificate details for George Slack and Amelia Knortton before we can do much more, unless an enquiry to Cornwall Record Office will elicit any further information about George Slack. That may well be worth trying as well.
Regards
Valda
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hi Guys
thanks so much for still taking an interest in my story. I have received the marriage cert..it states....that GEORGE SLACK married AMELIA KNORTTON ON 13 JANUARY 1842in Truro at the registry office. He was 36 and she 25, his occupation is stated as being a coachmaker. At the time of marriage they were living in calenick street , Kenwyn. Georges father was called WILLIAM SLACK (ALSO A COACH MAKER ) and Amelia's dad was CHARLES KNORTTON (a tanner by trade).
George signed the marriage cert...she marked hers with an X. This is obviously where the surname mistake all began...i am assuming that the official wrote her name down how it was pronounced. Also with the strong cornish accent i assume it surname could be anything ...ie:knaughton, knerton etc.
i did just want to say that whilst going through Cornwall Online Census Project , i did find an AMELIA CARNARTON , aged 24 (1841 census)....she was living with her grandmother Mary Carnarton (aged 70).Amelia was born in Falmouth in 1816...so that would make this girls age correct...also i believe she was a labourer,,,,hence lack of education.
what do you think of this info.
the marriage cert only helped in finding their father's names and not the surname mystery.
i hope to hear from you all soon and thanks once again for taking the time to respond.
regards
Deb
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Yep. Loads and loads of Carnarton in Cornwall according to familyhistoryonline.
It is easy now to see where the Knortton came from as the "car" bit would be pronounced as "c", making it Cnarton. Brilliant piece of detective work.
As for the alias who knows. One branch of the Mutton family changed their name to Mytton. At first I thought it may be the Registrar but this spread across several reg districts.
Fizzy
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Part 1
I've only had a go at examining the possibilty that the 1841 census Amelia Carnarton could be the Amelia who married George Slack.
The 1841 census doesn't tell you that Amelia was born in Falmouth. What the 1841 census does tell you (and this is often a bit unreliable but I think in this case will be reliable) is yes or no born in the county. So what the 1841 census says is only that Amelia was born in the county of Cornwall.
The 1841 census also doesn't give relationships. Making assumptions is a very dangerous activity in genealogy. Mary Carnarton may or may not be this Amelia's grandmother. The best you can say is she is a good candidate for this Amelia's grandmother if the age is right (indexed or enumerator correctly in the first place - you can't see the actual census page itself only someone's transcript and the 1841 census is often not easy to read).
Adult ages on the 1841 census (anyone over 15) are rounded to 5 usually down so Amelia could be anywhere between 25 and 30 and Mary 75 to 70 - though sometimes they get rounded up - ages in 1841 are a bit more fluid.
Carnarton seems to be a local surname (place name) to the area so even someone who can't sign their name (and you often find sometimes they can and sometimes they can't - stress and the big event for someone who rarely writes anything and hasn't since Sunday school may cause them to go for the cross as the easier option - it also doesn't mean they can't read) and has a broad Cornish accent should still have been understood by the registrar (but then it is a rare surname). If it was Carnarton the Truro registrar managed to get these others correct.
FreeBMD (incomplete index of the civil registration) Truro registration district including other areas besides Falmouth and Kenwyn.
Births Sep 1837
CARNARTON Female Truro 9 212
Births Mar 1840
Carnarton Female Truro 9 368
Births Sep 1843
CARNARTON Robert Truro 9 324
Marriages Sep 1850
CARNARTON Mary Ann Truro 9 341
Deaths Mar 1842
CARNARTON Mary Jane Truro 9 212
Deaths Jun 1842
CARNARTON Amelia Truro 9 245
Deaths Sep 1846
Carnarton Charles Truro 9 179
Deaths Mar 1848
Carnarton William Truro 9 247
Still everybody has an off day even a registrar, and if his off days were as bad as your Amelia's marriage I wouldn't necessarily spot the very creative attempt at spelling the surname.
It is some way from Carnarton to Knorrton.
Unfortunately the national burial index has coverage of Cornish parishes between 1813-1837 so the only age on burial I know of these Carnartons is Mary Jane who was 4.
Regards
Valda
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Part 2
However there is this website
http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/Cornwall/Kenwyn/Burials.html
Kenwyn Parish Registers - Some Burials
the only Carnarton found there is
p. 146 No. 1164 (numbers jump 100 numbers for some reason) MARY CARNARTON(CARNASTON?), Calenick Street, 5 March 1858, 57, G. L. Woolcombe(?), Curate
I'm presuming the 57 is her age on burial.
This woman seems the only candidate on the 1851 census unless anyone can find a better one. She doesn't fit the woman with Amelia in 1841.
1851 census HO107 1910 folio 209
High Cross Truro St Mary Cornwall
Mary Carnarton 51 Kenwyn, Cornwall, Lodger Married warehousewoman
Thomas Carnarton 21 Kenwyn, Cornwall, Son Mason's labourer
Emily Carnarton 10 Kenwyn, Cornwall, Daughter
Robert? Carnarton 7 Kenwyn, Cornwall, Son
I think this is probably that Mary on the 1841 census
Piece: HO107/147/14 Place: Powder-Cornwall Enumeration District: 4
Civil Parish: Kenwyn Truro Ecclesiastical Parish: -
Folio: 60 Page: 7
Address: Charles Street
Surname First name(s) Sex Age Occupation Where Born
CARNARTON Mary F 40 Lab. Cornwall
CARNARTON Charles M 15 Apprentice Cornwall
CARNARTON William M 13 Cornwall
CARNARTON Thomas M 12 Cornwall
CARNARTON Henry M 6 Cornwall
CARNARTON Mary F 4 Cornwall
CARNARTON Emily F 1 Cornwall
I had a quick stroll down Calenick Street in Kenwyn either side of the Slack family and other than William Carnarton the bone collector born Truro and lodging, there wasn't much else of interest in 1851.
On the 1841 census Amelia Carnarton was living in Calenick Street.
http://freecen.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
I cannot find an Amelia Carnarton baptism on the IGI. My Phillimores Atlas of parish registers says Falmouth and Kenwyn parish registers are fully covered on the IGI but not Kenwyn detached and of course I don't know so much about non-conformist registers.
These are the Kenwyn baptisms for children of a Charles and Mary Carnarton (IGI coverage 1813-1859) - could be a different Charles (you can bet even with a very rare surname - the 1851 census only picks up around 15 possibilities in Cornwall, none in 1861 and 2 in 1871 - they are all in the same place with the same names at the same times) - these baptisms might relate to the Mary found on both the 1841 and 1851 censuses.
CHARLES CARNARTON
Christening: 07 JAN 1827 Kenwyn, Cornwall,
HENRY PERRO CARNARTON
Christening: 25 DEC 1835 Kenwyn, Cornwall
MARY JANE CARNARTON
Christening: 25 DEC 1837 Kenwyn, Cornwall,
plus these three
WILLIAM CARNARTON
Christening: 01 SEP 1833 Constantine, Cornwall
MARY CARNARTON
Christening: 01 SEP 1833 Constantine, Cornwall
THOMAS CARNARTON
Christening: 01 SEP 1833 Constantine, Cornwall
No marriages of anyone in the name Carnarton 20 years either side of 1820 in Cornwall on the IGI. As Kerwyn is to the north and East of Falmouth, Constantine is to the west.
You could try the indexes of the Cornwall family History Society.
http://www.cornwallfhs.com/other/transcription_progress.htm
There is at least one member of the society expressing an interest in all Carnartons and if they have researched the surname that might be an easy way to say whether this is a possibility for Amelia's surname or not.
You also have that possibility of Amelia Carnarton's death registration in 1842 to contend with - especially since at this point only one has been found (still could be a child born and died after the 1841 census and the census index itself is incomplete at present).
All of this should give a start for JAP and something to get her teeth into on the next shift. I look forward to reading what she says. I've not come to any conclusions on this. I'd like to see what JAP thinks.
Regards
Valda
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Well Deb ... I really do like the name CARNARTON - it seems eminently possible for KNORRTON. But not, of course, yet proven.
Building on all the great information which Valda provided above, I had a look at that Kenwyn batch with children of a Charles CARNARTON and Mary - and just searched for children of a Charles (no surname) and a Mary. And, would you believe:
Amelia COUNACKAN, parents Charles COUNACKAN and Mary, bap 3 Oct 1824, Kenwyn Cornwall.
(This is the only occurrence of 'COUNACKAN' in the whole of the British Isles IGI so it seems very likely that it is a spelling or transcription error for CARNARTON).
I wonder whether Charles's occupation is given in the actual parish register(s) - both Kenwyn and Constantine ...
So we've now got the baptism of an Amelia BUT, if this Amelia was baptized soon after her birth she would be too young for the Amelia who married George SLACK/SMITH (that Amelia's birthdate is consistently given as ca 1816) and similarly too young for the Amelia (24) in the 1841 census. However, she might have been baptized as a child of 7 or 8 I guess.
But who is the Amelia CARNARTON who died in 1842? That is a worry!
Incidentally, a Mary Jane CARNARTON died in 1842 - perhaps 70yo Mary of the 1841?
The following site:
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~peterpjw/Carnarthen.html
lists some spellings of the name. It refers in passing to CARNARTON in Kenwyn in the 1881.
By the way, Deb, who were the witnesses at the marriage?
JAP
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hi Valda and JAP
I must admit that i am more confused than ever...I am also amazed at you searching skills !!!!! Give me time and i might catch up LOL.
I am in a rush to go to doctors this morning so i am just adding a quick bit of info.... ie: the witnesses to the marriage:
they were ...W.Robert Penrose and Christopher matthews. Another bit of info on marriage cert states the marriage took place in the district of Truro Union ...is this another district of Truro???
thanks again
will bbs
deb
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Part 1
Great find JAP but it still doesn't push me over the edge to Amelia Carnarton. I still have the problem with the age of Amelia (which I can confirm) and that death registration for Amelia Carnarton in 1842 (Mary Jane was 4 buried Kenwyn, so we also have the missing grandmother? death - if her age and name were correct on the 1841 census). It would seem Mary on the 1841 and 1851 census would be the Mary (possibly Duff) wife of Charles and mother of an Amelia born in 1824 - but still too young for an Amelia born consistently circa 1817. A Charles Carnarton marries on the Cornish marriage index in 1823.
From the A2A website
Cornwall Quarter Sessions, c 1350-1970
Quarter Sessions Order Books - ref. QS/1
FILE - Quarter Sessions Order Book - ref. QS/1/8 - date: Jan 1812-Apr 1817
item: Sessions held at Truro - ref. QS/1/8/626-678 - date: 15th April 1817
Appeal by Falmouth against order of 5 Apr. inst. for removal of Mary Carnarton, singlewoman, from Kenwyn: held over.
Cornwall Quarter Sessions, c 1350-1970
Quarter Sessions Order Books - ref. QS/1
FILE - Quarter Sessions Order Book - ref. QS/1/9 - date: July 1817-Oct 1819
item: Sessions held at Bodmin - ref. QS/1/9/40-78 - date: 14th October 1817
Continued appeal by Falmouth against order of 5 Apr. last for removal of Mary Carnarton, singlewoman from Kenwyn: order confirmed. Falmouth to pay Kenwyn £5 costs.
FILE - Quarter Sessions Order Book - ref. QS/1/10 - date: Jan 1820-Jan 1825
item: Sessions held at Bodmin - ref. QS/1/10/347-372 - date: 15 October 1822
Application by Kenwyn concerning female bastard born at Kenwyn 5 Aug. last, dau. of Mary Duff of Kenwyn, singlewoman. Charles Carnarton jun. of Kenwyn, alleged father.
Cornwall Quarter Sessions, c 1350-1970
Quarter Sessions Order Books - ref. QS/1
FILE - Quarter Sessions Order Book - ref. QS/1/11 - date: April 1825-Jan 1831
item: Sessions held at Bodmin - ref. QS/1/11/370-397 - date: 15 July 1828
Appeal by Constantine against order of 12 April last, for removal of Mary, wife of Charles Carnarton, and their children Elizabeth (4), Amelia (3), Charles (1 year and 9 months) and unbaptised son, from Kenwyn: held over.
Though it doesn't say it, the main reason for a Mary Carnarton removal in 1817 would be if she was pregnant, so this record keeps me going on Carnarton leaving the possibility of an illegitimate Carnarton birth with the face saving 'uncle' Charles the tanner on the marriage certificate.
However for this to work I would need two Amelia Carnartons and we've strained enough to find one. But we would have to have two because there is the death of Amelia Carnarton to explain in 1842 - it doesn't go away (roll on a full index of the 1841 census) and another Amelia Carnarton aged about 16 working away from home as a servant. I've still no idea on a Mary? death though between 1841-1851.
So does the IGI supply a Charles Carnarton of the right age to 'marry' a Mary Duff born circa 1800 whose father must be called Charles (he's called junior on quarter sessions record) with even better an older sister called Mary.
Not quite
ELIZABETH CARNARTEN
Christening: 23 JUN 1793 Helston, Cornwall
MARGERY CARNARTON
Christening: 24 JAN 1796 Helston, Cornwall
CHARITY CARNARTON
Christening: 18 FEB 1798 Helston, Cornwall
CHARLES CARNARTON
Christening: 23 MAR 1800 Helston, Cornwall
CHRISTIAN CARNARTON
Christening: 01 MAY 1807 Helston, Cornwall
ANN CARNARTON
Christening: 31 DEC 1809 Helston, Cornwall
and sadly other than Mary Jane, Carnartons don't get buried on the national Burial index (coverage in Cornwall seems very good/possibly blanket of Anglican parishes 1813-1837).
There is however a possible Margery Carnarton a pauper on the 1851 census aged 86 who could be born Helston staying with her niece in Truro. Is she the Mary of the 1841 census??
Regards
Valda
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Part 2
If you register with
http://www.familyhistoryonline.net/
which is where family history societies are putting further records (the Federation of Family History Societies website). You can look for free at the index for Carnarton of Cornish records placed there by the Cornwall FHS - burials, baptisms and censuses - which is how I know a Charles Carnarton married in Cornwall in 1823 (not on the IGI). If you pay a nominal fee you can see the outline of the actual record (the sort of detail you get on the IGI).
If Margery Carnartons will move conveniently to Mary Carnartons life would be simpler. There is on the Cornwall marriage index a marriage of a Margery Carnarton in 1827.
Parish Kenwyn Thomas EMIDY Date 16 Aug 1827 Wife Margery CARNARTON
Now this is where it starts to get very very interesting. Emidy is surprise surprise an exceedingly rare surname.
1841 census HO107/147/14 Place: Powder-Cornwall Enumeration District: 4
Civil Parish: Kenwyn Truro Ecclesiastical Parish: -
Folio: 60 Page: 7
Charles Street
EMIDY Thomas M 35 Musician Cornwall
EMIDY Margery F 40 Cornwall
Page: 61/8 EMIDY Cecelia F 13 Cornwall
EMIDY Francis M 10 Cornwall
EMIDY Eliza F 7 Cornwall
EMIDY Joseph M 6 Cornwall
EMIDY Richard M 4 Cornwall
EMIDY James M 2 Cornwall
FRANKLING Thomas M 20 Shoemaker Cornwall
1851 census HO107 1910 folio 333
Charles Street Kenwyn Cornwall
Thomas Emidy 45 Falmouth, Cornwall, Head Married Musician
Margarey Emidy 50 Helstone, Cornwall, Wife Married
Eliza Emidy 18 Truro, Cornwall, Daughter Dressmaker
Joseph Emidy 16 Truro, Cornwall, Son Musician
Richard Emidy 13 Truro, Cornwall, Son Musician
James Emidy 12 Truro, Cornwall, Son
Julia Emidy 5 Truro, Cornwall, Granddaughter
1861 census RG9 1559 folio 47
Charles Street Kenwyn Cornwall
Thomas Emidy 55 Falmouth, Cornwall, Head Married Musician
Margery Emidy 65 Helston, Cornwall, Wife Married
From the IGI
THOMAS HUTCHINS EMIDY
Birth: 06 JUL 1805
Christening: 08 DEC 1805 Falmouth, Cornwall
Father: JOSEPH EMIDY
Mother: JENIFER
I think it is at this point you really want to prove the Carnarton connection some how. Go to
http://www.jonroseweb.com/f_projects_emidy.html
I think you are really going to find it very very interesting!!!!!!!
Regards
Valda
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hi Valda
I have just been on the Jon Rose website re: Thomas Emidy.... Blimey...
i am still confused...is margery Carnarton then actually Mary Carnarton who had Amelia carnarton...who was illigitimate (father on her marriage cert being UNCLE charles...Mary/Margery's brother).... I will have to read all the info again.....
please forgive my confusion...there is so much info to digest.thanks once again for all your hard work.
deb
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Part 1
It hinges on whether Amelia Knorrton who married George Slack in 1842 was really an Amelia Carnarton. The only evidence of the existence of such a woman is the 1841 census when an Amelia Carnarton of the right age was living with an older woman called Mary (can't see the original census image only the transcript) in the right street in Kenwyn.
What you have at this point re the Carnarton family is
Charles senior married Margery and had at least 6 children in Helston between 1793-1809. Charles and Margery would be a little old to have another child called Amelia in 1817.
Their known children are
Elizabeth
Margery who married in Kenwyn in 1827 to Thomas Emidy
Charity
Charles who I think married Mary Duff in 1823 probably also in Kenwyn (he would be on the young side to be the father of an Amelia born circa 1817 and anyway if she was illegitimate with Charles as her father, she would be unlikely to have the Carnarton surname)
Christian
Ann
On the 1851 census in Kenwyn there is also a Benjamin Carnarton aged 47, a coal porter living in Charles Street with his family (they can be found on the 1841 census transcript) born Helston. I can't see his baptism on the IGI. If I can't see his baptism in Helston then perhaps I also can't find a Mary Carnarton's baptism either. What we do know is a Mary Carnarton was removed in 1817 from Kenwyn to Falmouth (crucial year 1817 so this is an interesting coincidence). You remove single young women from one parish to another usually only if they are pregnant. Single young women are ususally capable of earning their own living but at the moment they fall heavily pregnant with no father to support the oncoming baby they become a charge on the local ratepayers. Where the baby is born means it can claim the right of residency and so the ratepayers of that parish must pay for that baby's upkeep. Consequently if the pregnant mother did not have right of residency in the parish you moved her on as quickly as you could. This would be the main reason for a removal order being issued. Mary Carnarton was removed from Kenwyn back to the parish of Falmouth where one might expect her to have given birth if that was the reason for the removal. On the 1851 and 1861 censuses Amelia Slack/Smith gives her birthplace as Falmouth (later censuses Truro and Kenwyn, places she may later have lived after her birth - certainly Kenwyn).
In 1841 you have an Amelia Carnarton with a Mary Carnarton. Depending on the quality of the 1841 census image it is possible she was Amelia's grandmother Margery Carnarton. The census image itself may say Mary or it could say something like 'Marjry' which has been transcribed as Mary. Or the enumerator could simply have got the name wrong.
1851 census HO107 1910 folio 218
Goodwives? Lane Truro St Mary Cornwall
Sarah Sibbey 61 Goodwives Lane, Cornwall, Head Unmarried Shoemaker
Fanny Aliners? 31 Goodwives Lane, Cornwall, Niece Dressmaker
Margery Carnerton 86 Helstone, Cornwall, Aunt Widow Pauper
Margery Ashborn 12 Truro, Cornwall, Granddaughter
Susan Dennett 64 St Clement, Cornwall, Lodger Widow Servant
from FreeBMD
Deaths Mar 1855
CARNARTON Majory Truro 5c 155
This would help explain the lack of a Mary Carnarton death registration before 1851 and/or a Mary Carnarton on the 1851 census who could by her age be Amelia Carnarton's grandmother.
Amelia would then either be the daughter of Mary Carnarton of the removal order but no baptism, or possibly Margery who we do have a baptism for but may be wrongly identified in the removal order as Mary. Or the removal order is a red herring and Amelia is the daughter of any of Margery senior's older daughters (but with an 1817 birth not one of her sons - I just cannot find a legitimate hypothesis that fits the known facts).
Regards
Valda
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Part 2
On the otherhand I could knock this Carnarton edifice straight down since the only evidence rests with the 1841 census. If the age for Amelia is wrong on that census or has been transcribed wrongly then you have one Amelia Carnarton (and there only is one Amelia Carnarton - who knows whether Mary Carnarton even had a child and what gender and what name is was if she did). The Amelia Carnarton of the 1841 census could then become the younger Amelia daughter of Charles and Mary nee Duff (maybe) living with her grandmother (who was Margery) and that this Amelia died in 1842. End of story re Amelia Carnarton and back to square one re Amelia Knorrton who may very well be the legitimate daughter of Charles somebody or other who was a tanner.
I need JAP to look at this for me and follow the reasoning because it is complicated hence no reason to apoligise - it is a lot to work through.
If at the end of this we still have a possible working hypothesis which fits all the known but limited facts - that an Amelia Carnarton married a George Slack and she was the Amelia of the 1841 census then there are certain records at Cornwall's record office that will need to be checked or searched for. They may prove that an Amelia Carnarton did not marry George Slack - therefore money spent on a dead end, or they may prove there was such a woman and therefore highly likely she was the woman who married George Slack. It will be your decision.
In the meantime we all need to digest while we wait for JAP's incisive mind to tear through the pros and cons of the hypothesis.
Meanwhile even if nothing comes of it we all got to discover a 'lost Cornish' musician which was really very interesting.
Regards
Valda
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Valda
Thank you so much for putting everything into more perspective for me..... it is a lot of info and as you say we are just working on an assumption that Amelia Knortton/Slack/Smith is Amelia Carnarton, and as you so wisely put in one of your previous posting, assuming anything in genealogy is dangerous.!!
I eagerly await JAP's reply.
thank you once again for you time and effort.
Deb :)
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Hi Everybody, What great work has gone on here. ;D I too like Carnarton for Knortton. Does sound likely. I don't have much to add except to say we do have very good indexing for the 1841 Census. I have been right through all the C's, K's, and N's and can find no other option for Amelia other than the one provided. The image is very clear. It's definitely Mary I am afraid Valda. The only Carnarton's are in Kenwyn with Head's Mary and family and Benjamin and family. Funnily enough on the opposite page to Amelia in Calenick Street is the only other Amelia of the right age with a name slightly similar (Well it starts with a C). Amelia Courlies 25 Grocer and presumingly her parents would you believe Charles 65 Ind and Mary 65. Think the name is too far off to be relevent and being a Grocer surely she would be able to write but I did look twice.
This death in 1842 is still a major concern. (Another thing I must mention here is that the Death is not Covered by the NBI. Coverage of most parishes ends in 1837 unfortunately and Kenwyn, Falmouth and Truro all do end there I am afraid.) There just doesn't appear to be another Amelia to fit the bill anywhere in Cornwall. Hope Daisy May spots this thread and can find something in all her parish records. There is an OPC for Kenwyn http://www.cornwall-opc.org/PAR/H-K/Kenwyn.htm who may be able to help, no OPC for Falmouth.....Good Luck Deb. Hope you solve it....Kris :D
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hi krises
thanks so much for your imput...i too noted the courties/courlies on the cornwll online census of 1841 and i did to assume(!!!!!!) that the amelia courties , being a grocer , would have more of an education than amelia Carnarton who was a labourer.
this has stumped me ...as there is NO definite way to prove that Amelia Knortton(on marriage cert) is either one of them.I am just going on how the cornish accent would sound and am therefore presuming that Carnarton works best with Knortton..... Blimey...I was thinking that tracing through the female line would be easier..... and now it seems that i have uncovered a major mystery........ it all started with mary palmer nee smith....LOL
i really have no idea how this will end or how anything can be proved...i am in the USA so i am just relying on the census and whatever certs i can get hold of.
i REALLY appreciate everyones interest...... what a lark...as my dad would say LOL
thanks all
regards Deb
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Well Kris and Deb, I've been battling away looking at all the people called Amelia on the Cornwall 1841 - with no convincing 'KNORRTON' lookalike that I could find. Nor any candidate for a second Amelia aged ca 16 (daughter of Charles CARNARTON and Mary (DUFF), bap 1824 as COUNACKAN, and aged 3 in the 1828 CSQ order).
However, what I have found is a Mary in the Helston family.
Mary CARNARTHON, bap 10 Jul 1791, parents Charles CARNARTHON and Margaret (surely Margaret is the same as Margery/Margerry of the other six children).
At least this provides a Mary for the 1817 CSQ order for what that's worth.
But why were they sending her to Falmouth rather than Helston? Oh well, perhaps she had grown up in Falmouth. Or perhaps that's why Falmouth appealed against the order?
I guess the 1842 death cert for Amelia would be interesting - but perhaps not as it surely will turn out to be Amelia CARNARTON b ca 1824 (the 3 yo Amelia on the 1828 CSQ order). But where oh where is that Amelia in the 1841 unless she's the one we've found, and the age of 24 is incorrect ...
If I find anything else, I'll post again.
JAP
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Well, sad to say, I haven't found anything else.
KRIS
Kris, did you look for a possibility in the 1841 for the Amelia born ca 1824 hiding under some similar(?) name?
There's one oddity in the 1841 on FreeCEN - Amelia COTTENMOTH (name doubtful), age 15, a Pupil, birthplace unknown. This is HO 107/154/1/5/2. The 'next household' is a continuation of this page and changes halfway down to Page 5/3 - and every one of the people in this 'household' is a pauper ... I can't find the name COTTENMOTH anywhere else - IGI, Google, Ancestry. But this is in Launceston St Mary - a long way from Kenwyn ...
THE FAMILY FROM HELSTON
As I said above, I found a Mary bap 1791 as CARNARTHON.
I can't find a Benjamin to fit (waterman in 1841, coal porter in 1851). Though his birthdate (from 1851 census age) of ca 1804 fits nicely into a baptismal gap at that time - Mary 1791, Elizabeth 1793, Margery 1796, Charity 1798, Charles 1800, room for Benjamin!, Christian 1807, Ann 1809.
Incidentally, I can't find baptisms for Benjamin's children Mary and Peter (14 and 10 resp in the 1841) but the others (John 9, Richard 7, and Elizabeth 5) are in the IGI - John was bap 5 Oct 1834 as CARNAITON; Richard bap same day and surname as John; Eliza Ann bap 11 Apr 1841 as CARNARTON.
Sort of interesting that, in 1851, Peter C CARNARTON, 20, b Helston Cornwall, is a student at Terrace House Training Establishment for Schoolmasters in Battersea, London.
TRURO UNION
According to Genuki, both Truro St Mary's parish and Kenwyn parish were part of the Truro Union for Poor Law administration and parish relief. But why Truro Union would be mentioned on the marriage cert I don't know.
EMIDY
And I certainly love Joseph EMIDY!
CORNWALL QUARTER SESSIONS
Those Cornwall Quarter Session records are amazing. I've not come across them before (I know nothing about research in Cornwall) so I was most impressed.
There are also hits for CANARTHEN, CANNARTHEN, and CARNATHEN (the latter mainly the place) but they are not relevant.
AMELIA bap 1824
Valda, all your incredible work certainly has pinned down Amelia CARNARTON baptized (as COUNACKAN) in 1824, daughter of Charles and Mary.
Assuming that the baptism was not long after the birth and given the names of her parents, this Amelia of course fits with Amelia CARNARTON aged 3 in the 1828 (appeal against the) order against Mary, wife of Charles CARNARTON and their children Elizabeth 4, Amelia 3, Charles 1 3/4, and unbaptized son.
Incidentally, there is in the IGI the baptism of an Elizabeth DUFF, mother Mary DUFF, no father named, bap 13 Oct 1822, Kenwyn. Spot on for the pre-nuptial female child born Aug 1822 according to the 1822 order; but too early for Elizabeth 4 in 1828 (4 an error?).
That the order was against Constantine explains, of course, those 3 baptisms in Constantine in 1833 of children (William, Mary and Thomas) of Charles CARNARTON and Mary. William (13 in 1841) presumably the 'unbaptized son' of the 1828 order.
1842 DEATH CERT
This seems to be important - though a costly piece of information.
If this Amelia is ca 25, it pretty much drives a coach and horses through the hypothesis that Amelia CARNARTON, 24 in 1841, is Amelia who married George SLACK.
(And we could perhaps assume that the younger Amelia had died pre-1837)
On the other hand, if this Amelia is ca 17/18, we still have the twin problems of (a) might the 24 in the 1841 census have been an error and, if not, (b) where was this younger Amelia in the 1841.
(Assuming that Amelia COTTENMOTH is not a goer!!)
Intractable?
MARGERY
I like the idea of 86 yo Margery of 1851 and subsequent death being 70yo Mary of 1841. But how to prove?
VARIANT SPELLINGS
Just for interest, the IGI combines the following spellings (e&oe - and there may well be others):
*CARNARTON and CARNARTEN
*CANARTHEN, CANARTHAN, CANNARTHEN, CANNARTHIN, CANARTON, CANARTAN, CANERTHEN, CANARTHON and CANHERTIN (the last from Durham - probably not 'our' name)
*CARNARTHEN, CARNARTHAN, CORNARTHEN, CARNARTEON, CARNATHON, CARNITHEN, KARNATHAN and two which surely don't belong (CARNETON, Hereford and CARNITON, Worcester)
And not combined are:
*CARNAITON
*CARNARTHON
Cheers,
JAP
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I cannot find Courlies as a surname on the 1851 census. I have found an Amelia (transcribed as) Cartis (looks Curtis to me) in Kenwyn in 1851 with mother Mary. Amelia was aged 37 born Mullion. On the 1861 census I can find the same woman, surname Courlis (bit more like it and this would appear to be a surname) in Truro. So I'm hoping I can throw this Amelia out of the pot?
Cottonmoth looks interesting JAP as a no goer of a surname. Nothing like it in Cornwall on the 1851 census. Whatever it is it isn't Cottonmoth, but as you say she is a long way away and I would doubt Amelia would be a pupil - a servant working away from home more likely but less likely a pupil?
Brilliant find for the Mary CARNARTHON so we now have a Mary at least.
If we could close down the Amelia Carnarton death in 1842 we could open up on what happened to Mary Carnarton in Falmouth in 1817. People after all do get left off censuses so it is a possibility the second Amelia was alive in 1841. She is not on the national burial index and hasn't appeared for Truro registration district from 1837-1851 on FreeBMD unless she is Amelia who died in 1842.
I'm presuming the 1841 census clearly says 24 for the Amelia's age on the census and not 14?
So unless anyone else can nail down the 1842 Amelia's age on death or has any other suggestions re surnames for Knorrton my feeling would be that any next step would be to explore the 1817 removal order for Mary. What does every one else think? That can be done relatively cheaply since we know the exact references to the two records in the quarter sessions, so if Debs is willing it is a request to Cornwall Record Office for photocopies (unless someone is popping in to the record office - not something JAP and I can physically do unfortunately) with a follow up request on whether there is a 'Bastardy order' concerning Mary Carnarton in the Falmouth area (or any area, if she skips Falmouth) - shame there is nothing in the quarter sessions, so this might just be a 'fornlorn hope' and of course the removal orders may not give further details than we already have from the index - everything is a risk when you are searching further.
Regards
Valda
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There is a book on the Emidy family
System number 009894084
Author - personal Emidy, Marjorie A.
Title The Emidy family : Joseph Antonio Emidy and Jane (Jenefer) Hutchins of Cornwall England and some descendants / Marjorie A. Emidy.
Publisher/year Viroqua, Wis. : [The author], 2000.
Physical descr. 257 p. : ill., ports. ; 28 cm.
General note Includes name index.
Person as subject Emidy family.
Hutchins, Jane, 1778-1842.
Emidy, Joseph, d. 1835.
Holdings (All) Details
Shelfmark YA.2000.b.1697 Request
This is taken from the British Library Catalogue but it is also in the Library of Congress so I think it was probably published in America.
http://www.loc.gov/catdir/toc/fy052/00301320.html
Regards
Valda
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So much more excellent work here. I agree I think we do need the information from that death cert..... This Amelia JAP has found on FreeCen, I am sorry to say that the page is unreadable. I cannot even guarantee her name is Amelia...maybe A? but only because I am talking myself into it second letter is m, what I thought was a dot of an i may actually be all that is visible of the top of the l. Honestly I just don't know how it has been transcribed. Surname, no idea, sorry I just couldn't hazard a guess. Age also looks like 1 with little 0 to me, perhaps even age 6. Age 15 I just can't see....She is a Pupil. Where the Pauper's appear I just can't say either The "pauper" has been scribbled through and I just can't tell you what it says. Looking at some of the names of neighbours and comparing them to image I think FreeCen have done a really good job as when I see what they say and then look at the scan again some of them I can see. I have sat here looking for the last couple of hours or more and it isn't helping. So Sorry to be no help. It would have been great to find this second Amelia...Kris :'(
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Hi Valda, JAP and Kris
You guys are so GREAT!!!!!! I have found myself reading and rereading your entries and trying to put all of it together.
So...what do I do...i will order the death cert...can i order online???
or do i phone them??? Also could you give me the info so that i can order the right death cert.....
By the way what info do they give on this cert....?
i feel really useless as i am not adding much info to this search!
:-[
have a good day
deb
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The reference for the Amelia death certificate for obtaining the death certificate from the General Register Office is
Deaths
June Quarter 1842
Registration district Truro
Volume 9 Page 245
CARNARTON Amelia
The General Register Office website where you can order the certificate is
http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificate/
They are geared up to sending certificates overseas otherwise I might have recommended Truro registry office itself because they would probably be quicker at producing the certificate.
Amelia's death certificate alone may not solve the issue.
If it rules out an older woman then that is probably it for Amelia Carnartons, because there must surely be a limit to how many of these actually existed. JAP is really truly amazing on how many Carnartons she can keep producing out of her IGI 'magician's hat' but she isn't I don't think going to find three. So that would solve the issue.
Alternatively if it rules out a younger woman we are still left with the problem of whether there was only ever one or were there two Amelias -whether the 1841 census showed the only one there was with the wrong age when she was actually the younger Amelia!
Along with Amelia's age on the death certificate and her cause of death you get the name of who registered the death, but this early not their relationship, if any, to the deceased. English death certificates don't go overboard in the information stakes. You also get where Amelia died. She may of course not have died in Kenwyn which could mean an Amelia elsewhere on the 1841 census to have another look for. If she was the younger Amelia instead of an occupation you may get the daughter of ........ If the death was sudden and she died from an unknown cause we may get the added bonus of an inquest (no idea on the survival rates of Cornish inquest records but that will only be of interest if there was one).
The other web address at some point you are probably going to need is Cornwall's record Office where the quarter session records are held amongst a mass of other records.
http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=307
Regards
Valda
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Just some tidying up
- as I was looking at anyone in Kenwyn on the 1851 census who was born Helston at the beginning of the C19th/late C18th I saw this couple
1851 census HO107 1910 folio 311
Carelew? Street Kenwyn Cornwall
Richard Dennis 53 Kenwyn, Cornwall, Head Married Bargeman
Mary Dennis 60 Helstone, Cornwall, Wife Married Bargeman's wife
1861 census RG9 1559 folio 32
Carelew? Street Kenwyn Cornwall
Richard Dennis 63 Kea, Cornwall, Head Married Labourer
Mary Dennis 70 Helstone, Cornwall, Wife Married Labourer's wife
Deaths Sep 1867
Dennis Mary 78 Truro 5c 102
Deaths Dec 1869
Dennis Richard 73 Truro 5c 117
IGI children of Richard and Mary
ALICE DENNIS
Christening: 22 AUG 1819 Kenwyn, Cornwall
WILLIAM DENNIS
Christening: 12 OCT 1823 Kenwyn, Cornwall
CHARLES DENNIS
Christening: 03 JUL 1825 Kenwyn, Cornwall
RICHARD DENNIS
Christening: 08 JUN 1828 Kenwyn, Cornwall
Marriage Kenwyn 11 Apr 1819
Richard DENNIS
Mary CARNANTON
Helston 20 Mar 1791
Charles CARNARTHAN
Margaret PERROW
Still haven't found any connection with this family and tanning which is a trifle worrying.
Regards
Valda
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Hi again
Have been doing my own searching today...well trying to at least. I just had this thought ...Charles had a baby sister called Emily (she was 1 year old in 1841)...do you think she might have been the one that died in 1842 and that her name was transcribed as amelia on death record and not Emily???? whaty i am trying to say is that would it be possible for emily to have become an Amelia??
i have tried to check the 1851 census to see if she was still around but too no avail!!!!
am i clutching at straws here ? :-\
so if we can possibly prove that emily died after 1841 census then maybe she is the amelia who died in 1842.
what do you all think?
regards
Deb
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Perhaps he was a tinner and not a tanner.
Fizzy
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If you email CRO and ask them to look up the BURIAL for Amelia in 1842 that should tell you the age she was and save you going to the expense of paying for a death certificate. It may tell you whose child she was too.
They will do this for free. I know that as they recently did one for me.
Fizzy
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THE NAME EMILY
Read :
http://www.geocities.com/zoeyl_au/Emilythename.html
Fizzy
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I had already considered an Emily/Amelia for an 1817 baptism and couldn't find one.
It wasn't the case that the name was used interchangeably in Charles and Mary's family at least. They had two daughters - Amelia baptised 1824 and Emily aged 1 and 11 on the 1841 and 1851 censuses (the 1851 census is back on a Wednesday message - Emily still present).
Benjamin Carnarton doesn't seem to have had a daughter called Emily, but of course there is always the chance of another illegitimate daughter somewhere but she hasn't appeared on the IGI or in the Cornwall Family History Society indexes online at Family History Online, legitimate or otherwise.
Tinner is not really much better than tanner when you are coming up with potential sons and son-in-laws who are bargemen on the censuses. That occupation has a tendency to run in families.
Will the county record office look up a burial by email when all you know is the person died in Truro registration district, as opposed to a specific parish? Do you have to request a specific parish which would obviously be Kenwyn but if she isn't buried there (and only one Carnarton is up to 1837 and more must have died somewhere!) I presume they are not going to do a full blown search for free? The only reason I asked was it might be better to save their goodwill for a 'Bastardy Order' search which can only be got from them - the death certificate can be got separately and would give more information than a burial?
It is not my decision to make. The age alone on the burial may be sufficient information if it is an older woman, but that is all the information likely to got from the burial - age.
You could try a request on Rootchat for anyone going to Cornwall CRO to look up the burial in Kenwyn.
Sorry I can't be more helpful but I think we are grinding to halt on Carnarton at this point without access to further records. There is only so far you can get relying on the Internet alone. A death certificate ordered now probably isn't going to arrive until sometime in early May - the GRO are a bit snowed under with requests at present. There is a list of accredited researchers on the CRO website who you could employ to search records at the CRO and I'm sure Cornwall FHS has members who will also help. There is on their website one of their members expressing an interest in all Carnartons. If they have done a lot of research on the surname they may very well be worth contacting as we may be duplicating at least in part what they have already found out.
http://www.cornwallfhs.co.uk/Members_Interests/BURT-COCKRAM.htm
CARNARTHEN > > > > > > > Illogan All periods Member No. 04931
CARNARTON > > > > > > > All areas CON 1600-1699 1700-1799 1800-1899 Member No. 01149
CARNARTON > > > > > > > Truro 1800-1899 Member No. 10785
Cornwall FHS home page is here
http://www.cornwallfhs.com/index.htm
You should be able to contact them from the home page to ask how to get in touch with member No 01149. If that person has Internet access you could direct them to this thread on Rootschat. I've had that happen before and the person has very successfully joined the thread.
Regards
Valda
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Valda
Blimey....you have done so much for me in my quest to find more about Amelia and her family. I am so grateful to you and JAP.....the time and effort you have put into this is wonderful...i just wish i could repay you in someway!
i will order the death cert asap and let you know the info.
THANK YOU once again
:D Deb
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Valda, you've come up with lots more valuable information. I gather that the two marriages - Richard DENNIS & Mary CARNANTON 1819 Kenwyn, and Charles CARNARTHAN & Margaret PERROW 1791 Kenwyn - were from your other source (not the IGI). Both very interesting.
Just a piece of tidying up re the household where Margery CARNARTON Aunt 86 was in the 1851.
The 61 yo shoemaker Head is actually Sarah LIBBEY, not SIBBEY. It's the strangest 'L' I've come across but if one compares it with the enumerator's 'S' and with other instances of 'L', it becomes clear (e.g. in Laundress and in LIDDICOAT which was also transcribed as 'S').
Sarah is in the 1841 on FreeCEN in Goodwives Lane as Sally LIBBY, 50, Journeyman Shoemaker.
And the 31 yo niece in the 1851 is actually Fanny MINERS - once one knows it becomes obvious though I certainly couldn't see it until I did know!
William LIBBY & Sarah POLKINGHORNE married in Kenwyn in 1784. A William LIBBY & a Sarah had (all Truro bar Catharine who was Kenwyn):
Catharine 1786, Sarah 1789, Betsey 1791, William 1793 d 1799, Polly 1795, William 1800.
Betsey LIBBY married Thomas MINERS in 1819. A Thomas MINERS & a Betsey had (all bap Truro):
Fanny 1819, Edward Jennings 1822, William 1824, William 1827, Thomas 1830
Thomas (as MINORS) and Betsey are on the 1841 on FreeCEN at Pydar St - Thomas 50 Carpenter, Betsey 45, Fanny 20, Edward 15 Carpenter Apprentice, William 10, Thomas 10.
I can't pin down Margery(?) ASHBORNE, 12 yo granddaughter to the unmarried Sarah LIBBEY in the 1851. There are a couple of ASHBORNE (however spelled) families on the IGI - Thomas & Jane who had children 1814-1828, and Edward & Ann who had children 1835-1855. No Margery - the nearest is Mary Jane, 1841 (IGI and FreeBMD). And I can't find any ASHBORNEs (however spelled) in the 1841.
Regards,
JAP
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G'day everyone
I am Peter Williams, Cornwall FHS m/no 4931, and owner of website
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~peterpjw/Carnarthen.html
My main area of interest (related to this thread) is the CARNARTHEN family. This family includes farmers and malt millers resident in the parish of Phillack from the middle of the 17th century and covers four generations to the middle of the 18th century. While the senior branch of this line remained in Phillack for one hundred years or so, junior branches moved to Uny Lelant, Camborne, St Ives and Madron and other places nearby.
I have been very interested to read this thread, and am closely watching to see if research leads to CARNARTHEN families in the Phillack area.
I'm not one to frequent this kind of chat forum (I prefer email mailing lists), but will be happy to answer any questions here on this topic.
At this point, I have only one suggestion regarding the name Amelia. On another of my lines, an Amelia was known as Amy, Amaila, Emma and Ann, but perhaps you could also look for Millie, Milly, Emilia, Emmy and other variants.
The originator of this thread is certainly receiving some wonderfully erudite advice on this matter. Congrats to all involved.
Many thanks to JAP for alerting me to this discussion.
Regards
Peter
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Hi Peter and welcome to RootsChat! :)
Glad you've found something of interest here - you should take a look around this site and see what wonderful information is being provided with humour and "sticktoitivness " - it's something I've never seen on any other site !! ;) ;) ;)
Enjoy your stay !!
Annie :) :)
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Congratulation's to all concerned in this terrific thread!
To paraphrase Wellinton,"I dont know what it does to other's but it fills me with amazement"!!!
Goggy. ;) ;D ::)
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Peter, a fresh pair of eyes certainly helps!
I've corrected my earlier list of spelling variants found (so far) in the IGI. Fancy your finding that thread by 'kennington' re CARNATEON - we missed that!
We now have a whole new Truro family connected to the name (it surely is just a variant of the same name?).
Jacob LEVY married Elizabeth CARNATEON, 1 Jun 1813, Truro
Elizabeth is surely the daughter of Charles CARNARTON and Margery, 1793, Helston (see earlier in the thread) - on the 1851 census, Elizabeth (transcribed on a certain site as LERY) is recorded as age 58 and born Helstone.
And with the family is a 16yo cousin, Elisabeth ASHBURN b Kenwyn ...
A Jacob LEVY and an Elizabeth had, all Truro:
Charles b 1813, bap 1822 (probably the Charles, a watchmaker in Kenwyn in the 1851)
Anna b 1815, bap 1822
Jacob b 1818, bap 1822
Elizabeth b & bap 1822
Henry bap 1824
Emma (LEVI) bap 1826
Matilda bap 1831
Harriet bap 1834
The LEVY family is on FreeCEN in the 1841 at King St, Truro St Mary - all born Cornwall:
Jacob 50 Watchmaker, Elizabeth 49, Hannah 24, Elizabeth 19, Henry 17, Emma 15, Matilda 10, Harriot 8.
JAP
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The other source I'm using JAP is
http://www.familyhistoryonline.net/
you can register there - no charge for that. When I put in the surname Carna* it helps me see variants as well. It costs me about 6 pence a shot to view the details of a marriage.
I have also tried a straight baptism search there just on Amelia, Emily, Amy (it won't allow Ann without a surname as it is to frequent) etc - zilch.
From the IGI
ELIZABETH ANN ASHBOURNE
Christening: 25 DEC 1835 Kenwyn, Cornwall
Father: EDWARD ASHBOURNE
Mother: ANNE
and at last on a census some occupation to do with tanning!!
1841 census
HO107/148/8 Place: Powder-Cornwall Enumeration District: 3
Civil Parish: Truro St. Mary Ecclesiastical Parish: -
Folio: 47 Page: 20
Address: Goodwives Lane
ESHBURN Edward M 35 Currier Journyman Outside Census County (1841)
ESHBURN Ann F 30 Cornwall
ESHBURN Ann F 6 Cornwall
ESHBURN Thomas M 4 Cornwall
ESHBURN Margery F 3 Cornwall
ESHBURN Jane F 1 Cornwall
1851 census HO107 1910 folio 162
St Clement Workhouse Truro St Clement Cornwall
Ann Ashbourn 41 Helston, Cornwall, Pauper Married Shine Woman
Mary J Ashbourn 11 Kenwyn, Cornwall, Pauper
Eliza Ashbourn 8 Truro, Cornwall, Pauper
Metilda Ashbourn 6 Truro, Cornwall, Pauper
James Ashbourne 20mths? Truro, Cornwall, Pauper
plus
William H Asborne 9 Tavistock, Devon, Pauper
Marriage Kenwyn 9 May 1835
Edward ASHBURN
Ann CARNARTON
Tanner Tanned (cured) animal hides for leather making
Currier 1) Dressed the coat of a horse with a curry comb
2) Tanned leather by incorporating oil or grease
So to recap - of the Helston family we have now found
Mary CARNARTHON √
Christening: 10 Jul 1791 Helston, Cornwall
Married Richard Dennis
ELIZABETH CARNARTEN √
Christening: 23 JUN 1793 Helston, Cornwall
Married Jacob Levy
MARGERY CARNARTON √
Christening: 24 JAN 1796 Helston, Cornwall
Married Thomas Emidy
CHARITY CARNARTON
Christening: 18 FEB 1798 Helston, Cornwall
CHARLES CARNARTON √
Christening: 23 MAR 1800 Helston, Cornwall
Married Mary Duff?
CHRISTIAN CARNARTON
Christening: 01 MAY 1807 Helston, Cornwall
ANN CARNARTON √
Christening: 31 DEC 1809 Helston, Cornwall
Married Edward Asbourne
I can see absolutely nothing for Charitys or Christians on the Cornwall FHS marriage index so I'm concluding we have all of them now that married and survived to adulthood.
Peter
I think you will be lucky if we make a tie to the Phillack CARNARTHENS
On the Cornwall baptism database the earliest Carnarton variant is
Sithney 13 May 1762
JOHN CARNARTON
Father John CARNARTON
Mother Mary
If we are stuck an Amelia connection in 1817 - bit of a stumbling block there because we have still to make something of the Knorrton marriage details - father Charles the tanner
Then we certainly don't have a baptism for Charles Carnarthan who married Margery Perrow in Helston in 1791. Nice though it might be as the earliest CARNARTHER variant in Cornwall seems to be 1569.
Regards
Valda
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Valda,
ESHBURN!! I tried every (so I thought) AS*B*N* variant in the 1841 - but idiotically didn't think of starting the name with 'E' (or even perhaps 'HA').
I do wish the origin of Deb's Amelia (KNORRTON?) SLACK/SMITH could be proven. Ah well, even if Deb isn't a CARNARTON, perhaps all this extended family tree will be of use to kennington. And kennington can claim the fascinating EMIDYs as related by marriage.
As for establishing the origins of Charles CARNARTHAN who married Margaret(?) PERROW in 1791 ...
And there's still the puzzle of why George SLACK the coachmaker became George SMITH the hawker ...
JAP
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JAP
I think we have a nice little one name variant going here - completely useless to us of course if Amelia fails to become a Carnarton, but in the end someone is going to love us for it!
I'd like to say Eshburn came to me as an obvious search choice, but I went for the shortcut when all else failed with Ashbourne variants and stuck in Margery with no no name with a rough age and checked through all the Margerys.
OK so I forgot Benjamin Carnarton from the newly established 'one name variant study'.
1841 census
HO107/147/14 Place: Powder-Cornwall Enumeration District: 4
Civil Parish: Kenwyn Truro Ecclesiastical Parish: -
Folio: 71 Page: 28
Address: Back Lane
CARNARTON Benjamin M 30 Waterman Cornwall
CARNARTON Mary F 30 Cornwall
CARNARTON Mary F 14 Cornwall
CARNARTON Peter M 10 Cornwall
CARNARTON John M 9 Cornwall
CARNARTON Richard M 7 Cornwall
CARNARTON Elizabeth F 5 Cornwall
plus 12 others 5 of them N Ks
1851 census HO107 1910 folio 336
Charles Street Kenwyn Cornwall
Benjamin Carnarton 47 Helstone, Cornwall, Head Married Coal Porter
Mary Carnarton 44 Helstone, Cornwall, Wife Married
John Carnarton 18 Helstone, Cornwall, Son Mariner
Richard Carnarton 16 Helstone, Cornwall, Son
Eliza Ann Carnarton 15 Truro, Cornwall, Daughter Dressmaker
Harriet Moyle 41 Truro, Cornwall, Visitor Unmarried
Thomasin Moyle 12 St Austell, Cornwall, Visitor
William Henry Moyle 2 St Austell, Cornwall
And is this his marriage?
Helston 25 Sep 1826
Abednego CARNARTON
Mary LENDERYOU
It doesn't help I can't find an Abednego baptism
and the final one because if Abednego can move to Benjamin then Christian or Charity can surely become Kitty, but the Heards I can't find on censuses to confirm the Helston connection.
Kenwyn 14 May 1826
Thomas HEARD
Kitty CARNARTON
From the IGI - the last baptism maybe a late one
DANIEL HENRY HEARD
Christening: 07 OCT 1827 Kenwyn, Cornwall
THOMAS EDWARD HEARD
Christening: 10 JUN 1831 Kenwyn, Cornwall
JAMES HEARD
Christening: 20 AUG 1843 Kenwyn, Cornwall
and for Peter
There is a John and Mary Carnarton who have two children baptised in Sithey (adjacent to Helston) 1759 (Mary) and 1762 (John) - sadly no later Charles.
Also a marriage in Sithey in 1770 of a Catherine Carnarton who goes to Gwennap with her husband.
Knowing that the Exeter wills have been 'lost' (Second World War bombing raid on Exeter) I wondered whether you had followed up the Death Duties Registers at The National Archives as they 'follow' named beneficiaries?
Will of Mary Carnarthen, Spinster of Sithney, Cornwall. Proved in the Court of Exeter.
Date August 22 1797
Catalogue reference IR 26/339
Regards
Valda
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Hi all
I've attached a pdf version of a spreadsheet on CARNARTHEN and vars I created some years ago. Much of it has been mentioned in this thread, but see if there is anything else of interest.
Thanks for all the extra new facts. Sure hope all of this helps the thread originator in some way.
Cheers
Peter
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Thank you Peter (18 pages !!) that is very generous. It clears up I think the Benjamin/Abednego issue (JAP you just didn't search far enough away from Benjamin to find his two missing children's baptisms!!!)
MARY JANE CARNARTON
Christening: 07 JAN 1827 Helston, Cornwall
Father: ABEDNEGO CARNARTON
Mother: MARY
PETER CHARLES CARNARTON
Christening: 25 DEC 1829 Helston, Cornwall
Father: ABEDNEGO CARNARTON
Mother: MARY
Nothing though that helps further for Amelia or a Charles baptism sometime in 1760s ish and much as I've grown quite fond of the Carnartons without Amelia actually proving to be one..........
Peter
the Sithey Death Duty register if you wish it for your collection can be purchased electronically from TNA at
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documentsonline/power-search.asp?searchType=powersearch
just put Mary Carnarthen into the index.
Regards
Valda
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Hi everyone
This is absolutely unbelievable...... i am amazed and very grateful for everyones input...i do feel like the lost soul as everyone is contributing and i am sitting on the side lines watching. wish i could help more.
The only way to prove that the amelia knortton line is my family would then be to order the birth cert of of my gggrandmother ...mary slack/smith who married john palmer in 1876 in truro. Mary Slack/smith was born on 1859 in truro hopefully to the parents of Amelia Knortton and George Slack/smith.
So to get to the story straight...i need to order the birth cert of Mary Slack(who then became smith)...and to see if parents were Amelia KNortton who married George Slack(smith) in march 1842 in truro...... is this correct. ???
Then to order death cert of an amelia carnaton who died in 1842 so that we can identify her age at death .
Another thing is ...i may have to order my gggrandmothers cert either under Mary Slack b 1859 or Mary Smith b 1859...as George had decided to change the family name somewhere between 1851 and 1861!!!!!
Sooooo...... if i get her birth cert and name of parents are George and Amelia Slack or Smith ..this would then lead us back to the marriage cert that i have of Amelia Knortton (carnarton) marrying George Slack/Smith, therefore validating my Amelia Knortton connection but not necesarily the carnarton connection which i doubt will every be proven .
Oh my...i hope this makes sense.
thank you all once again
From one happy person..me
Deb xxx
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Hi again Deb,
I think you are selling yourself short with your comments about not contributing. After all, who was it who gave the original suggestion that KNORRTON might be CARNARTON - none other than Deb! Would we ever have got there otherwise? Well, I can assure you that I wouldn't have. And who is it who has suggested getting the birth cert of one of the children of George SLACK/SMITH and Amelia whatever!
Back on page 1(!), Valda listed SLACK entries in Cornwall on FreeBMD and in the IGI. From which it seemed that, though your family used SMITH in the censuses and later swapped over to that name entirely, they seem to have formally registered events under SLACK (and used it at baptisms). Valda also commented that SLACK was extremely rare in Cornwall and probably almost every one of the SLACK events would have been connected to your family.
So, from page 1, your Mary seems to be:
Mary SLACK, birth, Sep qtr 1858, Truro, Vol 5c, page 180
Mary SLACK bap 30 Aug 1858, Truro, parents George SLACK and Amelia
Mary SLACK's birth cert might reveal all! Let's hope so - fingers crossed that Mary's mother turns out to be, on the birth cert, Amelia SLACK ms CARNARTON! This is such a great family and rare name that it would really be a pity if it doesn't turn out to be yours.
Incidentally, at some stage you might order in to your nearest LDS FHC the film of the baptism of George SLACK, 29 Dec 1803, age 1, parents William SLACK and Ann, St Andrew Holborn London to see if it mentions William's occupation - George having given his birthplace as Holborn, his father's name and occupation as William a coachmaker, and his age suiting a birthdate as ca 1803.
Hi again Valda,
Of course I saw that wonderful forename Abednego. But didn't make a connexion with Benjamin and didn't even look at the actual names of his children (Peter Charles, eh, and to think I even mentioned that it was Peter C training to be a schoolmaster). Duh! Thus does the reputation of the wielder of the IGI 'magic hat' crumple. What's worse, I even recollect that, after noticing the name Abednego, I searched in the Helston batch just for children to father Abednego - there were just the two CARNARTONs (and, distracted by the name Abednego, I still didn't notice their so-relevant forenames) but also three PERROW girls in the 1770s/1780s. No Margery/Margaret but I recall wondering whether these might have been her sisters.
Hi again Peter,
That's a great list of C*N*T*Ns!
But whether you'll ever link them all up ...
I have two informal one-name studies and with one (LOCHTIE/LOCHTY) I can link every single one of them back to Aberdour in Fife Scotland. But can I link the two main lines (there are also a few loose ones) to each other? No way! Though I'm sure they are related - and I have no record of the name before the early 1600s (the lines being separate from much later but a big gap in between). I am sorely tempted by the folklore from the other main line that the original LOCHTIE was a 'Scandinavian' seaman who lobbed in to Aberdour in the late 1500s, married a local girl, and LOCHTIE/LOCHTY was what they made of his surname or place of origin.
Regards to all,
JAP
PS: I said I had no Cornish connexions and this is true. BUT, when I travelled to the UK for the first time, it was back in the days when one went by ship :o And my ship docked at Falmouth - so I first stepped on land in England in Cornwall. The ship had engine trouble and went into dry dock (a tanker size dry dock in which my little ship was hardly a speck) in Falmouth. And to anyone who might regard this as "spooky" - not at all; I like puzzles and finally I've got involved in one which happens to be in Cornwall.
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Actually as JAP says Debs you are adding to all this with some very good suggestions.
I also have a one name study which has zilch connection with Cornwall and yet on my one visit to Cornwall's record office - researching with a friend her Cornish roots, I walked into the record office on a summer's day when there was barely anyone in the place and the staff commented as I signed the book how unusual it was to have two people in the place with the same reasonably rarish surname. He of the same surname was researching his wife's Cornish roots.
This by the way I don't considered 'spooky' - if you walk into enough record offices sooner or later you have to meet someone.
Getting Mary Slack's birth certificate is an excellent idea for getting another shot at Amelia's surname. In fact so excellent and obviously simple and straightforward you have to ask why we didn't suggest it in the first place - obviously too busy 'enjoying' the Carnarton one name study, or certainly I was.
I think we now have to just sit it out and wait for the evidence from those certificates.
Regards
Valda
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Hey Valda,
Having madly mowed the front, back, and far back lawns, I'm just about to log off and go and make something to eat (about 7:30pm here) and then watch an evening's mindless TV.
But I have to say that I too wondered how it was that none of us had suggested getting a SLACK birth cert! But thought it prudent not to say so - didn't want to embarrass myself (I've done enough of that)! As you say, we were so into the CARNARTONs, the obvious had slipped by.
Deb, just as well you are here to keep us on the straight and narrow of your family!!
Judy
PS: The spookiest thing about Cornwall back then was when we set off from Falmouth with the idea of going to the Lizard and Land's End. At the Lizard, we stood in total mist - but it only started at knee level so, if we lay down on the ground, we had quite a good view for the first foot or so ... We gave up after that and drove east ...
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G'day everyone
Well, I've spent most of the afternoon working through all of the information presented so far, and I've put most of it into my family tree program, so if any of you want a gedcom, just let me know.
I have a few observations. Comments welcome.
1) The SMITH alias SLACK business is intruiguing. Perhaps one explanation for the change from coachbuilder journeyman to hawker could be the expansion of the railway system (decline in coachbuilding around then?). But why change to SMITH? Did they need to make themselves anonymous? Bankruptcy or unpaid debts perhaps? Or did some event in George's family (perhaps death of a parent) expose an illegitimacy, prompting him to take his natural father's name? Fascinating stuff! If this was my family, I would be buying EVERY certificate and other primary source that I could lay my hands on.
2) I'm fairly comfortable with the identification of Amelia "KNORTTON" as Amelia "CANARTON". The place name from which I presume the CANARTON surname derives (near Carn Brea in Illogan parish) has been written both as CANARTON and CARNARTHEN (and other variations). Even if the CANARTONs of Truro and Kenwyn aren't the same family as the CARNARTHENs of Phillack, my guess would be that way back in time, several people from the place took its name as their surname. Those people at that time could have been connected anyway, through other ancestral lines. (An unprovable theory, of course!)
3) The 1842 marriage showing KNORRTON - details might have been written by a non-Cornish clerk, perhaps visiting or filling in for the usual incumbent. This could be one explanation for the unusual spelling.
4) I wonder if, during the normal course of business, it would be reasonable to expect that the coachbuilding SLACKs had some interaction with the tanning KNORTTONs? I suppose coachbuilders might have used tanned leathers, or used the services of tanners in the preparation of leathers for the coaches. This might explain how George met Amelia.
5) Did anyone notice the following coincidence (?) - Mary Jane CARNARTON d/o Abednego & Mary was baptised same day (in Helston) as Charles CARNARTON s/o Charles & Mary (in Kenwyn) - date was 7 January 1827.
6) Charles was a name that occurred in the Phillack CARNARTHEN families between 1700 and 1750! I'm keeping this in mind for a possible link between the Helston and Phillack lines eventually. (OK, I'm an optomist.)
7) I guess we have concluded that Benjamin is the same person as Abednego.
8 ) Deb, if I were you, I wouldn't waste any time obtaining the 1817 removal order.
9) Amelia b 1816/17 might have been brought up by her grandparents Charles and Margery as their daughter. This could explain why she didn't become a DENNIS. Would also explain why she has Charles as her father's name (it would be Charles senior if this is the case). The removal order or a bastardy bond might name Amelia's natural father. So, was Charles sr or Charles jr the tanner? Or both?
10) The Amelia who died 1842, assuming she is the one born 1824, could have been out to service at the time of the 1841 census. It seems there no sign of her on the COCP pages at all? I agree that she is less likely to be the pupil called COTTONMOTH.
11) It's easy for Marg (as an abbreviation for Margaret or Margery) to be confused with Mary (handwriters and transcribers both being human).
12) How is Margaret "Margery" CARNARTON nee PERROW (ca 1765-1855) an aunt to Sarah "Sally" LIBBY (b 1789) (as per 1851 census)? I don't see the connection.
Cheers
Peter
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Of Peter's points 12 is definitely yours JAP, I'm only going for the easy stuff because I'm also about to put my feet up for an evening of mindless television.
Point 1 , I can't see there is any evidence of illegitimacy in the Slack family (the marriage certificate ties to the possible baptism) or any positive reason why the family would change from Slack to Smith since moving from coachmaking to hawking looks economically downhill to me. I did suggest bankruptcy (not insolvency - there is a difference) rather than something criminal, but you would need to explore records at Cornwall CRO to see whether you could unlock that puzzle. I can't see that certificates would get you anywhere with this one.
Point 3 Amelia married at Truro registry office and not in the local Kenwyn church. Marrying there would have allowed her to have her father's details go unchallenged and might be the reason for the more unusual (at the time) registry office ceremony.
Point 4 I'm more interested in knowing why George moved to Kenwyn from London. Kenwyn to London I understand. London to Kenwyn I don't. Once there the place couldn't have been that large though the 1851 census brings up 9,770 people which is larger than I expected, so sooner or later presumably most people met most people.
Point 6 I'm hoping Sithney might hold the clue to Helston (Death Duty Register!!). I don't think we've really got any further back than that yet as a possibility.
Points 8 & 9 children born before marriages particularly to other men have a tendency to be brought up by grandparents, but even if they weren't they don't necessarily assume either their legitimate father or their step father's surname, whichever their mother married. Not until 1927 were illegitimate children legitimised by a later marriage of their parents. However legally you could be known by any name you chose to be known by.
The 1817 removal order exists but there is no evidence that a 'Bastardy Order' ever did and if it did has survived. There is no evidence that Mary Carnarton was pregnant (other than there has to be some reason for why there was a removal order in the first place and the best we can hope from the removal information is that she was pregnant - I think you need to produce a child before you get documentation on possible fathers?) If Debs is going to order the photocopies of the quarter sessions information she needs to ask whether there was a subsequent 'Bastardy Order' which I think Cornwall CRO will check without a charge and could include in the photocopying if there was. There would appear to be nothing in the quarter sessions or you might have expected it to appear on the A2A website (as it has for Charles and Mary Duff) but that might be worth asking whether the period has been completely indexed. No 'Bastardy Order' and we are a bit stumped. There is no baptism on the IGI or the Cornwall FHS baptism index. You would have to check the Falmouth (are Falmouth baptisms on the IGI?) and Kenwyn registers just in case but it might be a fornlorn quest - though if there is anyone reading this who is popping into Cornwall's record office I'm sure we would all be very pleased if you could do us a quick look up for Amelia.
And one of my own - why aren't there any Carnarton burials on the Cornish burial index 1813-1837? Should there be the odd Charles?
From FreeBMD
Deaths Sep 1846
Carnarton Charles Truro 9 179
Deaths Mar 1858
Carnarton Charles Falmouth 5c 174
One of these I presume was the son of Charles junior (on the 1841 census but not the 1851 census) - who was the other one - a child? Are we a bit short in the Charles Carnarton department on censuses?
Regards
Valda
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1. Lots more excellent ideas and suggestions, Valda. There certainly seem to be lots of great sources available for Cornwall. Re the registry office marriage, I suppose there could be other reasons - perhaps the Kenwyn vicar wouldn't marry the illegitimate Amelia, or wouldn't marry George who might not at the time have been of the parish, or George and Amelia might not have wanted to wait for banns or to have them publicly proclaimed in Kenwyn (perhaps George already had a wife back in London ...!) ...
2. Aunt Margery CARNARTON.
Peter, re your point 12, I'm afraid I couldn't find a connexion between Margery CARNARTON and Sarah (Sally) LIBBY. Perhaps it's a courtesy title in view of Margery's age - though why would Margery (we believe her to be Margaret/Margery PERROW, widow of Charles CARNARTON snr) be living with Sarah? Perhaps it is some very distant connexion.
Fanny MINERS is certainly the niece of Sarah LIBBY.
However, not only can't we explain how Margery CARNARTON could be an Aunt of Sarah's, but even less can we explain why Margery ASHBORNE was recorded as the GrandDaughter of the unmarried Sarah LIBBY. That seems to be just a mistake - Margery ASHBORNE is the granddaughter of Margery CARNARTON (we believe).
3. Thomas HEARD & Kitty
Here's a couple of those names in 1851.
1851
HO107/1703
Claremont Street, Edmonton, Middlesex
HEARD Thomas, Head, Mar, 44, Coach Smith, b Dorset Weymouth
Do Kitty, Wife, Mar, 43, b Cornwall Truro
Do Charles, Son, 16, Coach Smith, b Berkshire Maidenhead
Do Daniel, Son, 14, Errand Boy, b do
Do Edward, Son, 12, Scholar at Home, b do
Do Ann, Daughter, 9, Scholar at Home, b Middlesex Kensington
Do James, Son, 2, b Middlesex Piccadilly
The family might be a possibility for 'our' couple though there are both pluses and minuses.
* A move out of Cornwall would explain why they can't be found there in the 1841.
* Kitty's birthplace is given as Truro rather than Helston - but if Thomas gave the information he well might not have known. And her age is about right for Christian CARNARTON (bap 1808).
* There are baptisms on the IGI in Bray, Berkshire for a Thomas 1833 and a Charles 1835. And an Ann's birth in Kensington in Jun qtr 1841. It would require Daniel bap 1827, Thomas bap 1831 and James bap 1843 (all in Kenwyn) not to have survived.
* Why would James be bap in Cornwall in 1843 if the family were living in Middlesex.
JAP
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G'day all
Found another piece to the jigsaw (didn't see this mentioned earlier, did I miss it?):
1841 census
Kenwyn, Charles Street
HO 107/147/8
ED 4 Book 14 Folio 59 Page 4
all b in county
MINERS, Francis, 25, lab.
CARNARTON, Elizabeth, 20, lab.
MANSELL, Harriett, 20, lab.
Should this be Frances (ie Fanny) MINERS? I guess Elizabeth is d/o Charles jr & Mary (nee DUFF).
Also on 1841 in Charles Street, something I didn't pick up from previous posts, but obvious looking at COCP, that Emidy and Carnarton families lived next door to one another.
And, further afield genealogically speaking, on the 1861 census, I found:
At Gwealangears, Wendron:
LANDERYOU family
William, h, m, 44, butcher, b Wendron
Elizabeth, w, m, 40, b Feock
William Henry, s, 14, scholar, b Helston
Elizabeth Jane, d, 13, scholar, b Helston
John, s, 11, scholar, b Helston
Thomas, s, 9, scholar, b Helston
Peter Charles, s, 7, scholar, b Helston
James, s, 5, scholar, b Helston
Johanna, d, 3, twin, b Wendron
George Henry, s, 3, twin, b Wendron
ALLEN, Priscilla, serv, u, 17, indoor servant, b Sithney
Probably closely related to wife of Benjamin/Abednego CARNARTON.
Also, on 1851 census, Mary CARNARTON (nee DUFF) and three children are lodgers (as previously noted). They were lodging with a family by the surname ANTHONY, the wife being Elizabeth ANTHONY, 35, b Truro. Wonder if this might not have been Mary DUFF's daughter Elizabeth b 1822 Kenwyn. Can anyone prove or disprove?
Cheers
Peter
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Hi Peter,
Just one quick comment. Fanny MINERS is with her parents Thomas and Betsey in Pydar St in the 1841 - as Fanny MINORS 20 (this is on p3 in the post immediately before you joined the thread).
Cheers,
JAP
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good morning everyone
Well it is the start of a new week and hopefully more great and fabulous info!! lol
i am going to be phoning my mum this morning with all the relevant info re: ordering certs..... i do just want to make sure that i have everything correct~
1. birth cert of MARY SLACK(smith) dau of george and amelia...b.sept 1859
2. death cert of AMELIA CARNARTON... june 1842
3. then... just a thought...maybe order birth cert of Amelia CARNARTON/DUFF b 1816 falmouth...would i be able to order this cert through truro office or would i have to order through falmouth office???/ another thought is where was Amelia born as Mary( Duff?) was sent back to falmouth from kenwyn...would that have happened before baby was born or afterward?
sooooo ...if you are all at your computers right now (LOL) please let me know if this is all i should do...
any other info you can add to this before i order would be great!!
hope you are all having a good day
Deb x
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Peter
Elizabeth Anthony is I think too old to be Mary and Charles' daughter, since she is 35 on the 1851 census. The only marriage on FreeBMD for a James and Elizabeth is this one
Marriages Mar 1842
ANTHONY James Truro 9 363
OLIVEY Elizabeth Truro 9 363
which incidentally/coincidentally is on the same page in the GRO index as George Slack and Amelia Knorrton's marriage.
Anyone - because this is the interesting bit.
The 1851 census has Mary Carnarton as married with children born in the 1840s. Emily aged 10 and
Births Sep 1843
CARNARTON Robert Truro 9 324
which takes me back to missing Charles Carnartons since I don't like loose ends. Rather dispiritedly I'd begun to accept that Charles must be at sea - not an occupation that suited tanners etc. However I have now found Charles junior in a much much more pleasing occupation - in fact better even than anything to do with tanning.
1851 census HO107 1907 folio 307
Bull Ring St Austell
Charles Karmanton 52 Helston, Cornwall, (Smith crossed through and replaced by Servant) Married Coach smith
I presume his is the death registered in 1858. I can't find him on the 1841 census.
Still leaves half of my original question about missing Charles Carnartons. What happened to Charles senior? I can't find him under any variant in the 1813- June 1837 Cornish burial index. If he died before 1813 you wouldn't expect Amelia to have put his details down as her father (if the theory of illegitimacy is correct and she put down the male relative nearest to her). Between 1837-1841 FreeBMD has almost complete coverage of deaths - nothing for Truro found. Which just leaves the 1846 death, but no young Charles Carnarton after the 1841 census either.
Regards
Valda
P.S. Debs on ordering anything
Civil registration in England and Wales began on 1st July 1837 - everything before that is parish registers. Amelia Carnarton the daughter of Mary nee Duff's baptism has been found by JAP. She was legitimately born.
Amelia COUNACKAN, parents Charles COUNACKAN and Mary, bap 3 Oct 1824, Kenwyn Cornwall
Marriage of her parents
Kenwyn 8 Dec 1823
Charles CARNARTON
Mary DUFF
This known Amelia isn't the one we want. We want the at present non-existant one who we hope was real and born probably in Falmouth.
The only possibility we have that there may have been a Carnarton birth in Falmouth around this time is the removal order of Mary Carnarton baptised in Helston on 10th July 1791 the daughter of Charles Carnarton senior and his wife 'Margery' Perrow. This Mary Carnarton later married Richard Dennis on 11th April 1819 in Kenwyn and had children in Kenwyn. We hope but have no proof that the reason for the removal order to Falmouth of Mary in 1817 was because she was pregnant. The removal order in the Cornish quarter sessions (courts) may specify she was pregnant.
Cornwall Quarter Sessions, c 1350-1970
Quarter Sessions Order Books - ref. QS/1
FILE - Quarter Sessions Order Book - ref. QS/1/8 - date: Jan 1812-Apr 1817
item: Sessions held at Truro - ref. QS/1/8/626-678 - date: 15th April 1817
Appeal by Falmouth against order of 5 Apr. inst. for removal of Mary Carnarton, singlewoman, from Kenwyn: held over.
Cornwall Quarter Sessions, c 1350-1970
Quarter Sessions Order Books - ref. QS/1
FILE - Quarter Sessions Order Book - ref. QS/1/9 - date: July 1817-Oct 1819
item: Sessions held at Bodmin - ref. QS/1/9/40-78 - date: 14th October 1817
Continued appeal by Falmouth against order of 5 Apr. last for removal of Mary Carnarton, singlewoman from Kenwyn: order confirmed. Falmouth to pay Kenwyn £5 costs.
Photocopies of these documents can only be ordered from Cornwall Record Office
(the certificates of Mary Slack's birth and Amelia Carnarton's death, since you live overseas are probably better ordered through the General Register Offfice (website address previously given) - you will need to give the full details given you to order them - name of person, year, quarter, registration district, volume number, page number).
If someone in England is ordering them for you then the GRO references are irrelevant to a local registry office. They will need the name, year and quarter.
Details of Truro register office are here
http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=4513
The birth and death were registered in Truro.
It looks like you have to phone or fax them.
If you order photocopies of the removal orders from Cornwall's Record Office (website already given on the thread) give the full details with the references and also ask if these removal orders resulted in a Bastardy Order involving Mary Carnarton because if so you would also like a photocopy of that record and then ask them how much all those photocopies will cost and how to proceed.
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Hi Deb,
Just to endorse what Valda has just posted.
If I were you, all I would do now would be to order just one certificate - the birth cert of Mary SLACK, 1858 (it's 1858 not 1859).
Mary SLACK, birth, Sep qtr 1858, Truro, Vol 5c, page 180
That (we hope) will have the maiden name of her mother, Amelia SLACK. And it will either be
(a) CARNARTON which will be great, or
(b) some other name similar to KNORRTON which we hadn't thought of.
Either way, there's definitely no need to spend money on the 1842 death certificate of Amelia CARNARTON as
(a) if the maiden name of Mary's mother turns out to be CARNARTON, then we'll know she couldn't have been the Amelia CARNARTON who died in 1842 - so the certificate of the Amelia who died in 1842 will be of no interest to you
(b) if the maiden name of Mary's mother turns out NOT to be CARNARTON then you will have no further interest in people of that name.
Good night!
JAP
PS: Im afraid some confusion has crept in (not surprising with all the twists and turns and people of similar names!).
We think that the unmarried Mary CARNARTON, who was removed to Falmouth in 1817, was probably a sister of Charles CARNARTON jnr. (both of them being children of Charles CARNARTON snr and Margery/Margaret PERROW - Mary bap 1791, and Charles jnr bap 1800, both in Helston).
It was actually Charles CARNARTON jnr who had a pre-nuptial child with a Mary DUFF in 1822 (he subsequently married her in 1823). They went on to have an Amelia CARNARTON in 1824 but she couldn't be your Amelia SLACK (your Amelia SLACK consistently gives an age which produces a birth date of ca 1817).
We don't actually know whether the reason for the removal of the unmarried Mary CARNARTON in 1817 was that she was pregnant (though it seems a likely reason).
And we don't actually know whether she did give birth to an illegitimate child. And we don't actually know whether that child was an Amelia. These are just hypotheses.
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Hi again
okay...i am with you now...i must admit that i was confused ...i was thinking that my amelia came from charles carnarton and mary duff....
phew!!!!
i have got it...my amelia (hopefully) is from mary carnarton sister of charles jnr,...i think my confusion is because marriage cert of my amelia states that her dad was charles the tanner.
will order cert and we will see
thanks again for all you have done
deb :)
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Mornin' all
Excellent work finding Charles on the 1851 census at St Austell!
COCP has him indexed as KARNARTON, and ancestry.co.uk has him indexed as KASMANTON. The folio is 370 not 307. I had a look at the image of the page. The handwriting is unusual. The enumerator has an unusual way of writing capital K, looks like an R, but definitely a K comparing to other words (eg place names) on the page. My take, for what it's worth, is KANNANTEN. I agree, however, that it is "our" Charles CARNARTON. Looks like he was employed in quite a successful carrier business. Other "servants" were drivers of omnibuses, coach painter, van driver, bookkeeper and porter, and there were lodgers too.
By the way, now that we know that Charles jr was a coach smith, does that add a little more weight to Charles sr being the tanner? And is it looking like Charles sr died prior to civil registration starting?
Looking forward to hearing from Deb once she obtains Mary's birth certificate.
Cheers
Peter
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Hi Peter,
That enumerator's hand is certainly rather weird (and yes, a fantastic find by Valda). I see Charles as either KARMANTON or KANNANTON - wouldn't like to choose. Yes, it obviously was a successful business he was working in. Though I wouldn't like to be searching for the boss who is transcribed in 1851 on a certain site as William Bidkik MELLOW(!) though it's pretty obviously KELLOW to me; William appears in 1861 as William Beddick KELLOW (William Beddick KELLEW in the IGI) and has become a farmer of 350 acres employing 13 labourers and 5 boys.
I Googled for "Coach Smith" or "Coachsmith" without getting a great deal of information. However I was interested to see that it's still an occupation. For instance:
Click Here (http://www.industrialrelations.nsw.gov.au/awards/pathways/results.jsp?award_code=143&show=Content&content_id=1624942)
Or Here (http://www.gov.mu/portal/site/laboursite/menuitem.22c9e11b03446bcb93347524e2b521ca/?content_id=dc173f4a0daf7010VgnVCM100000ca6a12acRCRD)
Yes, it will be very interesting to see Amelia's maiden name on Mary's birth certificate. If it is CARNARTON (or obvious variant), we can proceed from there.
On your general quest of trying to link all the families back to Phillack, it does seem that the Will of Mary CARNARTHEN of Sithney at the National Archives (reference from Valda) just might contain something useful.
Cheers,
JAP
PS: There are two deaths of a Charles CARNARTON on FreeBMD.
Sep qtr 1846, Truro, Vol 9, page 179
Mar qtr 1858, Falmouth, Vol 5c, page 174
I guess as Valda has found the presumed Charles jnr, husband of Mary DUFF, still alive in 1851, the 1858 record may well be this Charles.
The 1846 Charles might well be Charles, son of the above Charles jnr and Mary (DUFF) bap 1827 in Kenwyn.
If so, that would indeed presumably leave Charles snr dying before Statutory Registration
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Hi Good People
the cert has been ordered...yey.....
i have been googling the whole day...using variants such as george smith in london..george slack bastardy etc in order to find something on why he left london to go to truro....which is odd, that someone should leave london to go to cornwall, as Valda said in a previous message ..or was it JAP or peter... lol
okay...where should i look??
what should i do?...i want to help...!!!!!!!!!:)
also why do we think that it was george slacks fault that resulted in the change of name from slack to smith...i am only thinking this as during my search today i came upon an amelia slack that was married to a joseph slack and had a son joseph jnr in holborn london....in seeing this i thought that maybe we were blaming george for changing his family's name to smith because of his situation as opposed to something SHE had done... okay..... i know i am going off on a tangent...but think it's better to say something and have it torn down than not say anything at all. LOL
just a suggestion!!!!
as i said earlier late here now...and i am sick of waking up thinking about AMELIA ...LOL
thanks again...waiting in anticipation of birth cert.....
love deb xxxxxx
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Well Deb,
There are certainly all sorts of questions.
The birth cert should (we hope) answer the question of Amelia SLACK/SMITH's maiden surname.
As to your question of whether it was George or Amelia who plumped for the change of name to SMITH - the birth cert should show whether was it George or Amelia who was the informant of Mary's birth cert under the name SLACK! If it was George (and if he was the informant on all the SLACK birth certs) perhaps Amelia was the one who opted for SMITH - or vice versa. Who knows ...
I think at this stage we just have to sit on our hands and wait for the birth cert - easy for me to say as they are not my rells! Though I'd be champing at the bit if they were!
I guess there is one more thing you could do while you are waiting.
On the presumption that Amelia will turn out to be a CARNARTON, you could contact (as Valda has proposed) the Cornwall Record Office at the URL she has provided:
http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/index.cfm?articleid=307
to see whether there is any further information about the 1817 removal order for Mary CARNARTON. At the very least you could get a quote for this (shouldn't cost anything for a quote, and it probably won't cost a lot for photocopies) while you await the birth cert - then only order the photocopies if the birth cert does identify your Amelia as a CARNARTON.
What you would be looking for in your query to the Cornwall Records Office would be:
Cornwall Quarter Sessions, c 1350-1970
Quarter Sessions Order Books - ref. QS/1
FILE - Quarter Sessions Order Book - ref. QS/1/8 - date: Jan 1812-Apr 1817
item: Sessions held at Truro - ref. QS/1/8/626-678 - date: 15th April 1817
Appeal by Falmouth against order of 5 Apr. inst. for removal of Mary Carnarton, singlewoman, from Kenwyn: held over.
Cornwall Quarter Sessions, c 1350-1970
Quarter Sessions Order Books - ref. QS/1
FILE - Quarter Sessions Order Book - ref. QS/1/9 - date: July 1817-Oct 1819
item: Sessions held at Bodmin - ref. QS/1/9/40-78 - date: 14th October 1817
Continued appeal by Falmouth against order of 5 Apr. last for removal of Mary Carnarton, singlewoman from Kenwyn: order confirmed. Falmouth to pay Kenwyn £5 costs.
It certainly is a fascinating quest.
Best regards,
JAP
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I'm more than happy for Charles senior to die before statutory registration its just that the Cornish burial index 1813-1837 (which as far as I can tell is comprehensive for Anglican churchyards) doesn't seem to have him buried - or any Carnartons (various spellings) except Mary Jane.
Debs
Anyone could have done something to cause a name change but going for the simplest answer would be some sort of bankruptcy because that would also explain the major change in occupation for George.
Slack is a extremely rare surname in Cornwall but it isn't in other places of the country. The 1851 census produces 11 Amelia Slacks and 2,727 Slacks in all.
The internet does not supply all the answers it just pricks the surface. Most of the really interesting records are not indexed electronically and probably/possibly will never be. The National Archives has 10 million records indexed but this is chicken feed compared to its over 50 miles of shelved records stretching back a thousand years (plus records offsite because of storage issues). On top of TNA records are the county record offices records and other institutions records such as the British Library.
1.You have ordered the birth certificate
2. JAP has given you very good advice on the email request Cornwall RO
In the meantime you have to wait.
However I would suggest while you wait on your PC (or by hand) in the hope that it proves to be the surname Carnarton (otherwise it will be a waste of time unfortunately - though as an exercise it is important to be able to do it for your family history) take the information you have so far and construct a family tree. That has the added benefit of revisiting the information but giving you a visual representation. With the tree also list the source information. As we all wait (and I go back to work after a holiday) and other things intervene, we might forget some of the details of this thread and there are a lot of them. When we come back overtime we will not necessarily remember all these details. Peter presumably is also doing this since he has a head start and we have only been adding to his knowledge of this line. That way you have an overview as well.
Start with Charles senior and Margery and what you know about them and from what sources and then each of their children in turn.
This lacks the adrenalin of 'the search' but it is important to do and it will be helpful to JAP and myself in reminding us.
Regards
Valda
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Valda,
What very very sensible advice!
Since the first page of this fascinating thread I've been thinking how very much easier it would have been had I entered all the CARNARTONs and rells as a separate project into my genealogical program (TMG - The Master Genealogist - a really great program with almost infinite flexibility and said by many, and of course I agree, to be the most powerful program around) but I have resisted that temptation! I have entered more than enough people from my own distant rells not to mention all the incredibly distant people from my own two informal one-name studies.
Instead I've been regularly trundling back and forth through this thread, page by page, looking at the CARNARTONs and SLACKs and trying to remind myself of who is related to whom ... And, of course, as things get more and more complicated, and if there is subsequently a time gap in correspondence on this thread, it can only become more difficult.
Well, we now await (depending on Debs and Peter):
* Mary SLACK's birth cert with (we hope) Amelia's maiden surname and possibly other useful info
* perhaps some further info from the Cornwall Record Office about Mary CARNARTON's 1817 removal
* perhaps, from the National Archives, the Will of spinster Mary CARNARTON in Sithney in 1797 .
As someone who normally has no experience of research in Cornwall but usually researches in other counties (not just in England but also in Scotland and Ireland), I must say that I'm amazed at the comprehensiveness of the Cornwall records (100% on FreeCEN in 1841!!) including the burial index. If only 'twere so elsewhere ... For me burials are a fantastic bonus - though I have, admittedly, found some Scottish ones which brilliantly spelled out relationships (John LOCHTIE jnr said it all).
JAP
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G'day everyone
Well, it's 10:30 am here, and already 26 degrees C, heading for a hot 31! I'm taking a few days annual leave before Easter, so can spend a little more time on this fascinating thread. (I should be doing the housework, though!)
I'm attaching my gedcom FYI, with the caveat that I have entered relationships as hypothesised before we have the proof. Also, I haven't been too fussed about the spelling of the Canarton surname. Perhaps you could all double check it for me against the data in this thread. (And remember, I created it just to keep track of developments on this thread, it's not meant to be gospel! It's a working document, subject to change as more evidence comes to hand.)
I'll order the Sithney document today.
Cheers
Peter
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Me again,
I have the Sithney document:
- TNA Catalogue Reference: IR 26/339 Image 16
- Number: 84
- Date of the probate or admon and sum sworn: 22 Aug 1797 under 900 pounds
- Name and description of the testator or intestate: Mary CARNARTHON of Sithney spinster
- Name and places of abode of the executors or admors: Catherine HITCHENS (place not given)
- Names of the legatees distinguishing the residuary legatee:
- Catherine HITCHENS (the executrix), residuary legatee, sister, all the rest etc of her lands tenements goods etc
- Alice THOMAS widow, sister, twenty pounds
- Mary ANDREW, niece, twenty pounds
- Catherine HITCHENS, niece, one hundred pounds
- Richard ANDREW, one hundred pounds for the use and benefit of her nephew Wm Thos ANDREW
So, what can we make of this? The ANDREW family appears to be from Redruth:
Richard ANDREW
m 24 Dec 1786 Sithney to
Mary THOMAS
issue at least
- Mary ANDREW bapt 14 Jul 1788 Redruth
- William Thomas ANDREW bapt 9 Nov 1790 Redruth
- Joseph ANDREW bapt 14 Jul 1791 Redruth
- Mary ANDREW bapt 23 Jun 1794 Redruth
How was Mary THOMAS connected as niece to Mary CARNARTHEN? Was Mary THOMAS's mother a CARNARTHEN? And what about the two ladies called Catherine HITCHENS? Were they mother and daughter? Was the elder Catherine a CARNARTHEN?
I have a Thomas CARNARTHEN m 12 Nov 1757 at Camborne to Jane ANDREW in my tree. He was brother to my 5xg grandmother.
And, is there a connection between the Sithney family and the Kenwyn-Truro-Helston CANARTONs?
Looking forward to your thoughts on this.
Cheers
Peter
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Hi Peter,
Very interesting!
I guess as Catherine HITCHENS (Executrix and residuary legatee) and Alice THOMAS are both described as sisters of Mary CARNATHON (however spelled) they must both have been CARNATHONs - unless 'sister' is being used very loosely.
Perhaps you'll find some more marriages?
Cheers,
JAP
PS: Mary the testatrix seems to have been much better off than the Kenwyn - Truro - Helston families!
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Pity that means if it is Carnarton there is no easy way back from Helston for Debs line to somewhere else such as adjacent and convenient Sithney which I now can't see has a simple connection.
I initially thought that Mary the spinster's death in circa 1795 was this baptism, but the sister Catherine's age seems to rule it out - not to mention Alice's who seems another generation almost.
MARY CANARTAN
Christening: 01 JUL 1759 Sithney, Cornwall
Father: JOHN CANARTAN
Mother: MARY
JOHN CARNARTON
Christening: 13 MAY 1762 Sithney, Cornwall
Father: JOHN CARNARTON
Mother: MARY
Marriages and baptisms that fit the death Duty Register
Sithney 27 Dec 1770
Ebenezer HITCHINS
Catherine CARNARTON
CATHERINE HITCHENS
Christening: 27 DEC 1771 Gwennap, Cornwall
Father: EBENEZER HITCHENS
Mother: CATHERINE
Sithney 12 Jul 1753
William THOMAS
Alice CARNARTHEN
MARY THOMAS
Christening: 10 OCT 1755 Sithney, Cornwall
Father: WM. THOMAS
Mother: ALICE
WM. THOMAS
Christening: 08 JAN 1758 Sithney, Cornwall
Father: WILLM. THOMAS
Mother: ALICE
The only baptism I can find for that Catherine would be this one and nothing for Catherine or Mary.I've no idea if it is the right baptism and Jasper seems a bit of a dead end - though I'm sure he's fascinating to Peter - there is an earlier Jasper baptism in 1664 in Cornwall.
Madron 12 Feb 1733/34
Katherine CARNARTHEN
Father Jasper CARNARTHEN
No obvious connection in anyway to Charles Carnarton senior of Helston, but there are still the two Sithney baptisms in 1759 and 1762 with the possibility that John and Mary may have had another child (somewhere) called Charles and I suppose John could be a brother to these sisters from the Death Duty register - seems a lot of suppposing. Best marriage possibility I can come up with for the John and Mary couple (St Hilary is between Sithney and Madron going further and further west to the 'toe' of Cornwall - so a possibility for this family coming west from Madron via Sithney).
St Hilary 11 Apr 1757
John CARNARTHEN
Mary PASCOE
Regards
Valda
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Hi Guys
WELL....the birth cert of Mary Slack has arrived. My mum received it this morning... these are the details:
registration district :truro
sub district : St Clement
23 July 1858...Mary..... Union street , Truro
Father: George Slack
hawker
Mother: Amelia Slack...... formerly.... CARMARTON
I am soooooo excited...we are on the right path..... ;D :D :)
yey, yey, yey, yey, happy dance !!!!!!!!!!!!!
hope to hear from you all soon
Deb
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Deb, Deb,
It has to show that she's a CARNARTON ;D ;D ;D - doesn't it ??? ??? ???
Well, of course it does - but some more birth certs might be the icing on the cake (says the pedant!).
Though tell "Mum" to get out the magnifying glass and look a bit more carefully at Amelia's ms!
I'm truly so excited and glad for you (I got up and did a little jig!).
I'm starting to wonder (this is way off in the realms of guesswork) that perhaps George somehow became enamoured of the Travelling life and that's perhaps why he left coachbuilding (perhaps he'd built some vans for Travellers) and even why he adopted the surname SMITH (a fine Travelling name). And that this is what might have led to his descendant Bessie marrying a Traveller (albeit she brought him into a house dwelling life).
Sorry Deb - I'm going off into flights of fancy ...
I'm off to bed and a read of the next chapter of Lavengro.
All the best,
JAP
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Super efficient and quick mother there. Does she do lookups in Cornwall's Record Office in Truro as well?
Since it is after all Carnarton or near enough we now need the removal orders from the record office and an answer on the 'Bastardy Order'. I wouldn't hold out to much hope on the 'Bastardy Order'.
Regards
Valda
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Hi again
I have been doing a little bit of search on ancestry looking at original census transcripts and with the cursive writing of those days, i can easily see how Carnarton could be mistranscribed as CarMarton...
anyway...i think another birth cert of one of amelia and george' kids might be just added iceing....as you said JAP... lol
i was thinking that ordering Amelia Carnarton/slack/smith's birth cert would be great..... but we do not have any details of her birth except that it may have been in 1816/7 in Falmouth.
Any thoughts on how to persue this further .....
As was previously said i doubt we will find Amelia's father as Mary (amelia's mother?) was originally a carnarton.!
Also JAP , I love the idea of george wanting to be involved with the travellers... the Gypsy caravans were called VARGOs...maybe he did get involved in building them.... :)
Another little tidbit is that my John Palmer who married Mary/slack/smith (who's birth cert we have just received) was according to family history quite a "mean" man......john and mary had my ggrandmother Bessie palmer who married William Penfold , the gypsy.
John hated that...he didn't even attend his daughter's funeral because of the gypsy marriage.
Bessie(palmer)penfold died just a few months after William penfold. He died in april/may/ june quarter of 1926 and she died in the oct/nov/dec quarter of 1926. they left behind approx 17 children ...the oldest few of them were already married. My grandmother was 14 years old and got a job , but the rest of the kids were sent to orphanages...... JOhn Palmer did nothing to help his grandchildren!!!!!
Maybe , i am thinking , he hated the gypsy/hawker way of life as he had found out at some stage that his wife Mary/slack/smith /..child of george and amelia ... had come from hawkers...... and her family had a secret ie...changing names, changing occupations and also that mary had been illegitimate.
Another strange thing is that we cannot find the death of MaryPalmer (nee slack/smith).... according to 1901 census(RG 13/2222) William and Bessie palmer are living at 27 calenick st. kenwyn truro with their kids and right next door to them is living Her father , john Palmer and bessie's brother John....
John Palmer is seen as married..but i cannot find Mary anywhere!?
well, i have no idea why i added all that , but it does give some more info on the emotions that they were most probably feeling at that time.
have a good day everyone
Deb ;D
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hi Valda
i was just posting my last message when yours came through. My mum posted the birth cert request and it arrived this morning. Cornwall Records Office are really fantastic...it only takes a couple of days for her to get certs back from them....talk about efficient...i am thinking of emailing them a thank you letter...
so to answer your question...my mum does this by post as she has bad arthritis and is most of the time in major pain , especially her knees. i am hoping that she will be able to make her way to the CRO as soon as it warms up and she is having a good day.!!!
she is also very excited about the findings on the family!!!
i will order the removal order from them asap...
thanks
have a great day
Deb
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G'day Deb and others
Congrats, Deb! That birth certificate has taken your Carnarton line back to about 1760-ish (the estimated birth of Charles senior). The earliest record is his marriage at Helston in 1791.
I'm looking forward to hearing what the removal documents say, and if there is a bastardy bond. Don't give up yet on discovering the name of Amelia's father. You might be lucky.
I haven't had a chance to look for any more on the Sithney family yet - I've been to the Sydney Royal Easter Show (an agricultural show) with my family and am finishing the chores today to free up some time tomorrow.
Cheers
Peter
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Me again
The OPC for Sithney has uploaded data at http://www.rootsweb.com/~engcopc.
I found the following:
- marr 12 Jul 1753 Sithney, Alice CARNARTHEN to William THOMAS
- bapt 4 Oct 1768 Sithney, Charles CARNANTON, base born son of Christian GEORGE (her name was given as Xtian) - a good candidate for our Charles senior? Anything on removals or bastardy bonds?
- buried 22 Oct 1770, Sithney, Mary CARNARTON w of John CARNARTON
- marr 27 Dec 1770 Sithney, Catherine CARNARTON of Sithney to Ebenezer HITCHENS of Gwennap, witnesses William ASHMAN and William PASCOE
- marr 27 Jul 1783 Sithney, Mary CANARTHEN of Helston to Peter HAMMILL of Sithney, witnesses Thomas EDGCOMBE and William PASCOE
- buried 12 May 1790, Sithney, John CARNARTON of Madron aged 63
My 5g grandmother, Grace PAULL nee CARNARTHEN was bapt 24 Oct 1736 at Madron, and one of her brothers was John CARNARTHEN bapt 14 Mar 1731 at St Ives. Am I still being optimistic??
Cheers
Peter
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Peter,
Very interesting.
But no wonder we didn't find that 1768 Charles!
I've now checked on the IGI in the Sithney batch (P021561).
Charles is listed in the IGI as Charles Curnunton GEORGE - not to mention that Christian GEORGE is listed as his father! Definitely not one of their better efforts at indexing!
(Christian had an earlier illegitimate son in 1862; another Charles, the father of whom was a George CORNISH).
JAP
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Hi again
More data, this time from Helston OPC http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~cricket5:
- marr 4 Dec 1756, Helston, Jane CANARTON of Gulval to Edward GONINAN
- marr 20 Mar 1791, Helston, Charles CARNARTHAN of Helston to Margaret PERROW, witnesses M?? (or Abed'o) PERROW, John JAGO, banns (my comment - could this be Abednego PERROW?)
- buried 10 Feb 1803, Helston, Charity CARNARTON, 5 yrs, daughter of Charles CARNARTON
- marr 25 Sep 1826, Helston, Abednego CARNARTON of Helston to Mary LANDERYOU, witnesses C OPIE, Peter LANDERYOU, banns
My Grace PAULL nee CARNARTHEN had a sister Jane CARNARTHEN bapt 12 Feb 1733 at Madron and her mother Jane CARNARTHEN nee USTES (EUSTACE) was buried at Gulval on 12 Feb 1754. This is the Jasper line that was mentioned earlier.
Jasper CARNARTHEN bapt 22 Feb 1695 Uny Lelant
marr 8 Jun 1729 Towednack to
Jane USTES bur 12 Feb 1754 at Gulval
Children:
1 Edward bapt 11 Jan 1730 St Ives
2 John bapt 14 Mar 1731 St Ives
3 Jane bapt 12 Feb 1733 Madron
4 Katherine bapt 12 Feb 1733 Madron
5 George bapt 27 Jul 1735 at Madron
6 Grace bapt 24 Oct 1736 at Madron
7 Thomas (m 1757 Camborne to Jane ANDREW) (I don't have a baptism for him, and he may or may not be child of Jasper and Jane).
Cheers
Peter
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So much for the chores!!
More browsing...
George CORNISH's wife Florence was buried 1755 in Sithney.
His bastard by Christian GEORGE was buried 20 Jan 1763 in Sithney.
William and Christian GEORGE buried three children in Sithney as follows:
Elizabeth 27 Feb 1749
Charles 2 Oct 1754
Richard 5 Oct 1755
Also these baptisms:
Christian GEORGE 9 Aug 1737 d/o William
Margaret GEORGE 4 Feb 1738 d/o William & Christian
William GEORGE 9 May 1741 s/o William & Christian
Richard GEORGE 20 May 1744 s/o William & Catherine (should it be Christian?)
John GEORGE 25 Mar 1746 s/o William & Christian
Elizabeth GEORGE 18 Feb 1749 d/o William & Christian
Elizabeth GEORGE 27 Nov 1751 d/o William & Christian
Charles GEORGE 27 Sep 1754 s/o William & Christian
Mary GEORGE 6 Feb 1757 d/o William & Christian
I wonder if Christian GEORGE's bastard Charles CARNARTHEN was son of John (who m Mary)? And was that John brother to my Grace?
Cheers
Peter
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A very interesting find, though a second illegitimacy will prove tough to prove, supposing we ever get through the Amelia 'blockage'.
There may be a bastardy bond for Christian's son, but it is not on the A2A index (the survival rate of these documents is not great).
My only problem with Charles' illegitimacy is it is rare for an illegitimate child to take his or her father's name, unless there is a later marriage of the parents. This Charles would have grown up with his maternal George family, or if his mother married possibly with his stepfather - tendency there for illegitimate children to sometimes to take their stepfather's surname.
A loose end is a loose end - so what happened to this Charles' mother?
Breage 20 Jul 1771
John EDWARDS
Christian GEORGE
Adjacent parish to Sithney to the west.
Children of the marriage on the IGI
MARGARET EDWARDS
Christening: 20 MAR 1772 Breage, Cornwall
DOROTHY EDWARDS
Christening: 04 JUL 1773 Breage, Cornwall
THOMAS EDWARDS
Christening: 23 APR 1775 Breage, Cornwall
CHRISTIAN EDWARDS
Christening: 10 NOV 1776 Breage, Cornwall
Burial
Breage 17 Feb 1820
Christian EDWARDS
Aged 84
What happened to the George grandparents? Did Charles stay with them or move with his mother?
The good news is I can't see a Charles Edwards/George in Breage parish registers
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~althea/
but single men could go anywhere and in this case under at least two other surnames. It will be difficult to prove even though he is in the right area at the right time, that he is the same man as the one who appears in Helston (whose burial and therefore age we do not have - sorry to keep going on about that burial but it is another loose end) -
Personally I'd also like to know his occupation, though I see on Benjamin/Abednego's daughter's baptism in Helston, Abednego was a butcher.
CARNARTON Mary Jane 1827 07-Jan F - - Abednego & Mary CARNARTON Helston, butcher
Much better than the later boatman occupation and much more in line with tanning.
Regards
Valda
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Good points raised.
I can add to the uncertainty. Let's say the elder Christian (who married William GEORGE) was born around 1720. By the time Charles CARNARTHEN was baptised in 1768, she would have been only 48 years. So which Christian GEORGE is his mother? Mrs Christian GEORGE or her daughter Miss Christian GEORGE (later EDWARDS?) bapt 1737? Hard to say at this point, isn't it?
Cheers
Peter
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Bearing a child at the age of 48 in 1768 would not have been impossible - but it would surely have been incredibly unusual. Most women back then seemed to cease childbearing at about age 42 in my experience with just a few going on for a further year or two (but I'm more than willing to be corrected).
Let's follow William of Occam/Ockham's Razor and go for the simpler explanation i.e. that it was Christian jnr ;)
JAP
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Loose ends should always be tied up where possible and can be very useful. Since I'm supposedly spring cleaning I was hinting someone else might like the George grandparents search - but in a lull from window cleaning here they are.
Helston burial parish register
1797 23-Jan
GEORGE Christian 87 yrs Sithney wid, pauper
with an option on this being her husband
1781 11-Mar
GEORGE William 75 yrs -
I think for the mother to have openly had a child by another man in an adulterous affair would have caused some comment in the register of a small Cornish village. She would also have been according to her age at burial - be around 58.
From the IGI - the unusual surnames just keep on coming
WILLIAM GEORGE
CHRISTIAN CHEFFER
Marriage: 15 SEP 1736 Falmouth, Cornwall
CHRISTIAN CHEFFERS
Christening: 07 SEP 1713 Falmouth, Cornwall
Parents:
Father: CRISPIN CHEFFERS
So 55ish on the baptism of Charles and 44ish on the baptism of her last child.
Regards
Valda
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hi Good People :)
well...i think that the search for Amelia's dad may be over ...as i have just called the cornwall records office re; requesting further info on Mary Carnartons removal orders etc.
The archivist who i spoke to , at great length , could not help at all ...as she said that the information that we have is all there is . She says that because of the dates of removal orders being so early in the 1800's that there were no other supporting details and that removal orders could be for anything...ie; no job preggers etc!!!!!!
i am dissappointed, as you can imagine! :-[
i don't know where to go from here....but i still want to say a big thanks to everyone in finding my family.......
i am very grateful that we have delved back as far as we did...especially with all the confusion with forenames/surnames/crazy spelt names LOL ;D
and we found a great cornish musician !!!! yey
hope to hear from you all soon
take care
deb x
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Debs
To confirm precisely what the 'etc' was in your conversation with the archivist -
she said the quarter sessions were completely indexed for the period 1817/18 on the website A2A and there was therefore nothing further as there was for example with Mary Duff's child in the quarter sessions (this wasn't a removal order but a claim for maintenance by the parish of Kenwyn in the courts)?
Quarter Sessions Order Book - ref. QS/1/10 - date: Jan 1820-Jan 1825
item: Sessions held at Bodmin - ref. QS/1/10/347-372 - date: 15 October 1822
Application by Kenwyn concerning female bastard born at Kenwyn 5 Aug. last, dau. of Mary Duff of Kenwyn, singlewoman. Charles Carnarton jun. of Kenwyn, alleged father.
or a separate 'Bastardy order' existing - this would not be a court record?
If that is the case then you can only rely on a baptism probably in Falmouth but possibly in Kenwyn and that the parish clerk gives some information about the father as well. Personally getting information on Amelia's father would have been the icing on the cake, because I thought we were really only trying to prove the Carnarton connection.
Without some evidence of Amelia's birth that is it for Carnarton, because there would be no proof one way or another of who Amelia's mother actually was (we think Amelia was illegitimate but have no actually proof she was). The 1841 census has an Amelia with Margery who could be the younger Amelia. Your Amelia gives Charles Carnarton, tanner as her father. Other than Amelia's marriage and possbily the 1841 census (but then the other Amelia would be missing from that census so where was she) we have no evidence for this Amelia Carnarton or her father's existence before Amelia's marriage.
So the bottom line is we think there is a connection (it all looks good), but there is no definitive evidence so far for that connection to the Carnarton family of Helston.
Illegitimacy can often be extremely difficult to trace back from and even if we do succeed in getting past Amelia, the possibility of a further and earlier illegitimacy of her 'potential' grandfather where the connection to Carnarton would have to be on the male side might be just too difficult to prove.
Regards
Valda
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Great story,
I stayed up till past 3am reading thihs thread last night.
Have to re-read and constrcut a family tree to follow it all.
Marvellous detective work!
Bye for now,
Darren M Flowers
Wyrallah NSW
Australia
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Hi Darren
Isn't it amazing what all these wonderful people on here can help you find!?
It's a great read...but imagine living it...wow. It is all still very confusing as to why the changed their names from Slack to Smith and yet still registered their children's birth under SLack.....
Amelia Carnarton/slack/smith really got under my skin...i still think of her everyday lol....wish i could heve met her!!!!!!
anyway thanks for the reply.glad you enjoyed!!!
take care
Deb
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Hi
Just a quick comment.
I have a full set of the Non-Conformist Registers transcribed and published by Sheila Townsend in 2000 and there are no "Carnartons".
If anyone else wants anything looked up, then just let me know.
All the best
Chris Penrose
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hi Chris
I am still a novice at all of this so not to sure of what you mean by 'non-conformists'......
thanks for your interest . BTW are you in cornwall????
deb :)
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Hi Deb, What a nice picture!
To answer your first question, I have lived in Leeds in Yorkshire since 1988, after being brought up in Hertfordshire after leaving Cornwall.
Over here: "Non-Conformist" relates to a member of a church or religion separate from the Church of England. This does not include the Roman Catholic Church, and churches or societies followed by immigrants.
The churches in Cornwall were/are: Baptist; Wesleyan; The Bible Christians Circuit; and Independant.
This is not a subject on which I am an expert, so expect more postings!
All the best
Chris
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Actually it does include Roman Catholics - any Christian church not conforming to Anglicanism (the U.S. affliated church I believe is called Episcopalians). You were right the first time Chris.
With the marriage act of 1754 until July 1837 only Anglican marriages were legal in this country (the only exceptions allowed were Quakers, foreign churches and Jews) so all non-conformists (apart from the exceptions) had to marry in an Anglican church if they wanted a legal marriage no matter whether they were Catholic or Baptist etc.
After 1837 marriages could take place in non-conformist churches but unlike the Anglican church marriage those marriages were only legal if the local registrar was present to 'legalise the marriage' the ceremony itself in a non-Anglican church was not recognised as legal only the established church (the Anglican church) ceremony and a marriage conducted before a registrar were legal.
I bet Cornwall also had non-conformists like the Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion as well as those you've listed.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Deb , I just found this thread today and couldn't believe my eyes!! I have been doing the very same research over the past year, into the Smith/Slack mystery! :o
You see, I am the Great Granddaughter of Mary Palmer, younger daughter of Mary Slack/Smith and John Palmer! In other words, the sister of your Bessie.
It seems that their name changed from Slack to Smith between Mary's birth in 1858 and the 1861 census, as Mary, the youngest, was registered as Slack, but they were Smith's by the time of the census. As Mary's father George was already a Hawker when he registered her birth it I wonder if, in fact, the name change is related to his new occupation after all? Unfortunately, I don't have any other ideas as to why they did that! All I know is that I bought just about every Mary Smith's birth cert in Truro before I found the marriage of her parents! Who'd have thought to look for the birth cert of Mary Smith under the name Slack!
On another note, I don't know if you are aware that Bessie and Mary's younger "siblings" were actually cousins? John and Annie Palmer (b circa 1880 and 1883) were actually the children of Amelia Smith (c 1849) and were "adopted into the Palmer family" according to the entry in the Parish register at their baptism on 2 Dec 1884!
When you mentioned about John Palmer seeming to hate travellers, that went through my mind! Why would he have adopted a nephew and neice into his family? Hawking was the lowest of low, a despised profession from what I gather, but he loved Mary enough to have married into the family!
Like you, I don't know what happened to her after 1901 either!
Have you gone back on the Palmer side? Therein lies another Mystery (a Devon one), for another thread, I think!
But a BIG thank you to everyone who contributed to this thread, as you've really helped me to get past Amelia Carnarton's beginnings! ;D
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Hi Britgirl
Welcome to the "Cornish Mystery" thread! Was your ancestor Minnie PALMER b ca 1879 at Kenwyn? Where was the Dec 1884 baptism of Annie and John performed?
Cheers
Peter
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Hi Bridget
WELCOME!! I am speechless.....
I am so glad you found us and me... I would love to find out more on the "adoption" of the younger siblings !
I bet you had a great time reading this thread .... the info gathered has definitely been a labour of 'love' !! Everyone who worked on this have been wonderful. ;D
I am going to look at what I have re: the PALMER side of the family ... I love a mystery LOL
can't wait to here from you again.
'cousin' Deb ;)
PS: do you have photos ?
JAP, Valda,Peter,Woosh and Chris : Isn't this exciting ? yippeeeeee
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oops sorry called you bridget instead of BRITGIRL :-X
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Hi Guys,
Firstly Peter, Yes, this is Minnie Palmer, as she was known. The baptisms of Annie & John Smith into the Palmer family were performed at St John's, Truro, the same place as Bessie and Mary's baptisms and of John Palmer's siblings, well, some of them.
Deb, I only have the one photo of Minnie Palmer, or Grose as she was by then, taken with my Mum in Falmouth. She rarely left her home in Truro except for this one visit when my Mum was a baby! Minnie died in 1966 and I do remember visiting her in her nursing home, somewhat vaguely as I was only 3 at the time!Do you have any photos?
I PM'd you Deb. Hopefully we can get to share info more fully offline?
Britgirl
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Deb
as this is now the equivalent of the Amelia Carnarton story and website, sooner or later anyone researching their family history is now bound to find you. You are the top (and almost only) hit when you Google for her, so hopefully you will continue to find further cousins.
Regards
Valda
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Hi Deb, Britgirl and others
Valda is right - more relatives may find this site, easily, at any time in the future. If you ever change your email address, you'll need to check back here every now and then!
These kind of "family reunions" ARE exciting, Deb. It's part of the buzz we get with family history. The other part, for me, is the detective work involved - it drags me in, everytime - it's the thrill of the chase!! ;)
All the best
Peter
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Hi everyone
It's been a while since I have been to this post ... although Amelia Carnarton/Slack/ Smith is never far from my mind.
Today my Mother called regarding The famous Muscian ...Joseph Emidy.... I thought that this little tidbit was quite fabulous and thought I would post just so that we may take another walk down our Cornish mystery..... once again thanks to all the wonderfull Rootschat "detectives" who strolled those long ago streets of Truro.......
"A Musical Club Truro"
http://www.rootschat.com/links/015d/
MODERATOR COMMENT: Please view article at the site Thankyou. Long link shrunk using Trystans nifty shrink a link http://www.rootschat.com/links/
i hope this works ....LOL
best regards always
Deb
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Hi all
Another interesting EMIDY link:
www.emidy.com (http://www.emidy.com)
I have been tracing the descendants of Thomas Hutchins EMIDY and Margery CARNARTON. Contact me if you are interested.
Cheers
Peter
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Hi Peter
Thanks so much for that link ...fascinating stuff!!
I see you are on another post trying to connect Sarah/Sally Libby to her aunt Margery Carnaton ... hopefully something pops up for you !! ::)
Julia and I are still trying to find AMELIA Slack/smith whose children were adopted by my John PALMER and Mary slack/smith (sister of Amelia, whose parents were George Slack/Smith and Amelia CARNARTON ).
If you come across anything let me know LOL, I will be on the lookout for Sarah Libby :)
deb
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Greetings all, especially those of you out in the colonies ;D
I have recently started to research my family tree and can go back as far as George Smith/Slack (b1802 ish), my Great Great Grandfather. I live locally, Truro is only 20 minutes away, hence gravestones and the county records office are within easy reach.
This thread has given me insight into a glitch that has had you all perplexed, that of the origin of Amelia.
My father (80) remembers his father telling him of how the family name changed but I have so far not established why. As I said, I have only recently started delving into the family past, however, the work done by you so far has given me enough to look into for the next few months before I start on my maternal lineage. Then of course, there is my wifes family, my sisters husband..............................................hopefully before which I will have discovered drink or drugs.
Keep the flow going
Regards
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Hi :)
How fabulous to hear from you.... please let us know how you are related. George Slack/Smith was my GG Grandfather too.
George Slack/smith and Amelia Carnarton had my great grandmother , Mary (who married John Palmer) who had Bessie Palmer (who married William Penfold) who had my nan Violet Venie who had my mum Maureen who had me ... ;D
can't wait for me info from you, especially someone who actually may be able to shed a little light on the name change .
regards
Deb
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Greetings Deb
The trail from George Slack to me is as follows:
George Slack(Smith) [ b Holborn] Changed between 1858/61, I suspect 1861)
I
I
George Smith [b Truro 1852/3] Don't have laptop to hand so can't be specific
I
I
Ernest Smith [b Truro 1887]
I
I
Lionel G J Smith [b Truro 1926]
I
I
John L J Smith [ b 1953 St. Albans, Hertfordshire] (Grrrrrrr - missed out on being Cornish by birth)
So that is the lineage as far as I can track by word of mouth and family documents. My limited research so far has taken me to Kenwyn Church where I found and photographed several graves which tie in with the expanding list of names that I have. In addition there are more kin buried in Chacewater Churchyard, 5 miles NW of Truro where there are more of George Jnrs siblings. I never thought of looking for a surname change until I became stuck trying to find George Snr and the name Slack kept creeping into the equation.
I questioned my father on the matter and let slip the name Slack and he immediately opened up saying that his father, Ernest, once told him that the family name had changed but that Ernest had been reluctant to expand on the reasons why. (Time to break out the Sodium Pentathol and rubber hoses!)
I have booked a visit to the County Records Office, Truro, on Thursday morning, this week and will be looking for whatever the records there have to
offer. I am being accompanied by a lady who has been delving into her family tree for 10 years or more and can trace her family back to the mid 1500s, so I hope with her help, to find out more.
If there are any particular areas that you may wish me to delve into whilst I am there, please let me know. I shall try to obtain as much hard copy info as I can while I am there.
Meanwhile, I will continue to gather info, including photographs of the family (as far back as they go) and pictures of where they lived and their grave stones. I so far have found more than 200 individuals in the tree since 1802 and that is without looking at my Mother's side of the family.
Enough for now, I shall be back next week with more.
Regards,
HSD
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Hi HSD
Thanks so much for all the information . I think what everyone who has worked on unravelling this mystery wants to know is : WHY did George B 1802 decide to change the family name...
As one of the rootschatters here mentioned once , we can understand someone living in Cornwall moving to London , but vice versa seems rather strange. Maybe you can uncover records/newspaper articles or something that would give us the reason ...maybe bankruptcy or imprisonment !! :o
Any other information on Amelia Carnarton would also be wonderful.
I would love to see some photos too!
regards
Deb
PS: what would my and Julia's relationship be to you ?
(Julia's ggrandmother and mine were sisters..,our Great great grandmother, Mary was your George's (b 1852 truro) sister. We all share the same GGG grandparents ...George and Amelia Slack/Smith ;D )
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Hi all,
Well, I have just finished reading this whole thread - how fascinating! And what time and effort has gone into this. Unfortunately, the only thing I can add is to answer this for you:
PS: what would my and Julia's relationship be to you ?
(Julia's ggrandmother and mine were sisters..,our Great great grandmother, Mary was your George's (b 1852 truro) sister. We all share the same GGG grandparents ...George and Amelia Slack/Smith ;D )
Since you share a gg-grandmother, you and Julia are third cousins, and HSD is fourth cousin to both of you (one more generation back - common ggg-grandparents). See this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin
Happy hunting!
MJP
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Hi MJP
Thanks for that ... I will keep the link too as I am always confused when it comes to the 'relationship' area.
Glad you enjoyed the read :)
Deb
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Hi HSD,
I guess that on your visit to the CRO you will be trying to find out anything you can - including anything about the name change (SLACK to SMITH).
You say that the name change happened between 1858 and 1861 (and that you suspect 1861). I am wondering why?
Dates which have seemed likely to be connected to Ann SLACK (birth Truro, Dec qtr 1842; from IGI daughter of George SLACK & Amelia) might be pertinent?
It has been suggested that Emma Barton SLACK (birth Truro, Dec qtr 1861; from IGI listed as SLACK or BURTON, daughter of Joseph SLACK or BURTON and Ann) and William Francis B SLACK (birth Truro, Mar qtr 1867) were her illegitimate children.
There are two deaths which seem to be these children - Emma Burton SLACK age 8 and Francis Bassett SLACK age 3 (deaths Truro, both Sep qtr 1870).
So, assuming that they were children of Ann's (still a hypothesis), then it seems that the name SLACK was still being used in the Sep qtr 1870. Though it could, of course, just be that the Registrar knew the children as SLACK and insisted on that name.
But the marriage in the Dec qtr 1870 which seems to be that of Ann (still a hypothesis) is under SMITH - marriages Truro Dec qtr 1870; Ann SMITH and Francis BASSETT appear on the same page. Francis appears with wife Ann in the 1871 census (there's still a loose end as the birth of daughter Annie BASSETT, age 7 in the 1871 census, has not been located).
HSD, I wonder whether you have the birth cert of your George (George SLACK, births, Truro, Mar qtr 1852)? Or any other certs relating to George SLACK/SMITH & Amelia, or their children?
It would be good (but expensive!) to be able to see the complete details (including informant) on each and every certificate of George SLACK/SMITH & Amelia and their children! And all census entries for all of them. There might just be some little clue hidden away somewhere!
Regards,
JAP
PS: Deb, did you ever mention who was the informant on the birth cert of Mary SLACK, 1858 which you obtained?
PPS: HSD, it would also be interesting if you could post some info about the gravestone inscriptions you mentioned.
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Hi Jap
Nice to 'see' you again. :)
Re: Mary Slack/Smith birth cert.
Born; 23 July 1858, Union Street, Truro
Father: George SLACK HAWKER
Mother: Amelia SLACK formerly Carmarton
Informant: George SLACK, father
Mary was their youngest child , so it seems that up to 1858 they were using the name Slack, but he is a HAWKER on the birth cert and not a coach builder...so maybe he registered the children under SLACK but was already
using the name SMITH in public. ::)
On George and Amelia's marriage cert they were married in the Register Office in the district of Truro Union (13 Jan 1842). I wonder why there was no church wedding? (George Slack and his father William Slack were coach builders)
Amelia KNORTTON/Carnarton's dad is Charles, a tanner.
(residence at time of marriage ..Calenick street. I wonder if the move from Calenick street to Union street was a move 'down'in the world?)
witnesses to their marriage were: W. Robert Penrose and Christopher Matthews.
regards
Deb
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Hi Deb,
The date of the total change of name from SLACK to SMITH does seem to be quite difficult to pinpoint.
Similarly the date when George's occupation changed from Coach Builder to Hawker (additional birth certs of his children might help?).
It certainly does seem that there was a difference between use of the SMITH name in everyday life vis-a-vis sticking with SLACK officially (the latter perhaps imposed on the family by the local Registrar and even the clergy).
As far as I can see, the first recorded usage of the SMITH name that we have to date is in the 1861 census. But SLACK continues in the births and deaths of the illegitimate children of their daughter Ann (if such she was, and if such they were) until Sep qtr 1870.
All very interesting.
JAP
PS: SLACKSMITH is a name I seem always to have been aware of in Australia! I wonder what its origin is!
PPS: It is interesting that HSD's Dad had heard of the name change. I wonder whether any other descendants of George SLACK/SMITH might have heard further details of the reasons ...
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Hi All,
I'm off to Truro to the County Records Office tomorrow, meanwhile why did George (b1802) leave London. My father seems to remember hearing that George travelled down here with a friend and that that friend settled in mid-Cornwall. Was that one of his brothers? - Charles or John? Was he running away from someone or thing? Maybe an earlier wife because when he married in 1842, he was 39 which in that era was quite old to be putting down roots. Also, was Ann born shortly after the marriage? I need to re-read the paperwork I have to see if my Grey matter is reading it right. Meanwhile, Slack, not a common name in the country, let alone the county, was still figuring in procreativity in the 1860-70s. Polygamy?????
Lets see what I can unearth in the morning ???
HSD
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ummmmmm
I cannot find George Slack in 1841. ::)
I thought this may give us a clue as to where he was and what he was doing before he married Amelia Carnarton.
As a matter of fact I cannot find any of the Slack family in 1841.
I even used an older DOB for George as he was baptised along with his brothers in 1803.
Deb
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hi again
I am adding this little snippet of info because of the family names mentioned..
(the info comes from Colleena who posts on the 'Travellers Boards " )
"Maria Boswell ( married Christopher Penfold) in 1909, she was the sister to Abraham Boswell my great grand Father,
I came across a reference to a civil court case which was reported in the paper "The Cornishman" dated Sept 1907 where a Abraham Boswell had given evidence on behalf of his sister Maria/Griffiths/ Boswell, who's was taken to court by a man called Slack, with whom she had been living with for 15 years.
That's all I know at this stage, I made inquiries and without an actual date, it means hiring a researcher, so maybe a packed lunch and a trip to the UK maybe the go, all interesting stuff this..."
The Boswells and the Penfolds are both Romany gypsy families.... George Slack changed his name to Smith (a well known Gypsy name) and changed his occupation to 'hawker".
I have no idea how relevant this may be but it involves some of my family ...
Maria BOSWELL, mentioned in the article above, married Christopher PENFOLD (this was his 2nd wife)...
Amelia and George Slack/Smith had my Mary , b 1858. Mary married John PALMER and had my Bessie Palmer... okay this is where it gets interesting ...
Bessie PALMER married Thomas PENFOLD.....
My Thomas Penfold and Christopher Penfold were BROTHERS.
it is strange that I have Slacks who became Smiths and changed occupation to hawker and within the same family we have a Palmer/Smith marrying a Penfold , and a SLACK that gets involved with a BOSWELL who then marries a Penfold.
BTW Maria BOSWELL's brother was in prison for many years ....
Okay ...as I said I have no idea if this is relevant as the years in which this took place do not seem to match up but maybe all info regarding the SLACKS should be mentioned here.
deb :)
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Hi All,
Since my last post, I have visited the County Records Office in Truro and also visited the Family History Centre in Truro during which time I managed to dot a few I's and cross a few T's.
If my digging is correct, and some of you may already have found this out, George Slack was married in Truro in the first quarter of 1842. However, we believe that according to an earlier Census record, he was also married whilst living in Holborn though the name of his spouse is not clear.
Now I have to find out if they are one and the same person and if records can be found in the Holborn area to substantiate this.
Will be back when I have more............
HSD
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Hi HSD
Nice to see you! I have just looked through the 1841 census and there is this:
Mr Slack 40 born Middlesex, London
Mrs Slack 40
living in Ossulstone, a div of Holborn
HO107/673/1 fol 19 pg 30
The enummerator has filled in other people's occupations.... but there is nothing for Mr and Mrs Slack.... I wonder if this is Our George and 1st wife, trying to lay low. ;D :o
Thanks for checking all the records . I look forward to hearing from you again.
Deb
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The 1841 census couple were actually living in St. Giles in the Fields.
http://homepages.gold.ac.uk/genuki/MDX/HolbornStAndrew/outline.htm
Holborn I associate more with the area around St. Andrew Holborn and St. Giles in the Fields as a parish bordering Westminster.
On the 1841 census adult ages were rounded down to the nearest 5 so the couple would be aged between 40 and 44. George was 36 on his marriage in 1842.
Relationships were not given on the 1841 census so there is an assumption that the 1841 census pair were a married couple, but there is no actual evidence for this on the census entry (I don't remember George Slack saying he was a widower on the 1842 marriage - but then my memory might be faulty on this)??
No occupation/s was/were given on the 1841 census for this couple.
Census night 1841 was 6th June. George married in Truro on 13th January 1842.
On the 1851 census there were 155 Slacks living in the London area. Difficult to say whether the 1841 census entry couldn't be for any one of those couples of the right age.
All in all there is absolutely no evidence for this 1841 census entry being George Slack and what little evidence there is would seem to indicate it wasn't.
Regards
Valda
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<snip>
(I don't remember George Slack saying he was a widower on the 1842 marriage - but then my memory might be faulty on this)??
<snip>
Back on Page 1, Deb posted some details from the marriage cert (13 Jan 1842) but did not mention marital status. Deb, perhaps for completeness you could check back and confirm whether George portrayed himself as a Bachelor or a Widower?
Of course, he might not have told the truth!
Re his age - yes, it was given as 36 on the marriage cert but it seems that he fibbed a little bit about that as we believe that he was baptized at the age of 1 in 1803. If that baptism is correct, then his age was a bit too low in the 1851 census also (dob ca 1811), though it was pretty right in the 1861 (dob ca 1802) and 1871 (dob ca 1803) and at his death in 1872 (dob 1803).
JAP
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Hi
I have just checked the marriage cert and George Slack/Smith is a 'batchelor'.
Also, he and his two brothers were christened in the same year....in 1803, if I remember rightly.
If he was 36 in 1842 ( year of marriage ) that would have meant that he was born c 1806...ummmmm
Was he the 1st child to be born ?...if so then maybe he is even older than what we thought. Unless he was a triplet .... ::)
Thanks for staying involved Jap and Valda!
regards
deb
regards
deb
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Hi Deb,
The IGI (extracted entries) lists the ages and birth years at the christening in St Andrews, Holborn on 29 Dec 1803 of the three SLACK boys - John b 1796 and aged 7, Charles b 1800 and aged 3, and George b 1803 and aged 1. It might be of interest to see the actual entry in the parish register.
JAP
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Hi HSD,
I think you might be the person a lady contacted me about this week, on behalf of a descendant of Ernest Lionel SMITH, whose tree she is helping trace!! If that makes any sense!
We'll get to the bottom of this name change mystery eventually. You're the first to actually have any previous family knowledge of it though, so hopefully the sodium pentathol will work! Lol!
Do you have the birth certs of George and Amelia's children George (1852) & James (1855)? We know that by Mary's birth in 1858 he was a Hawker, so they might help with the timeline.
It also seems that all further usage of the name SLACK ended with the death of George Sr in 1872. Certainly when Mary (SLACK) SMITH married John PALMER in 1876 she named her father as George SMITH on the certificate.
Re: the lack of George SLACK in 1841, all I can think of is that he was going under an alias again! Or Ancestry has mistrancribed him beyond all recognition!! ::)
Unfortunately FreeCEN, which is well covered for Cornwall (possibly even 100% complete), doesn't throw up any likely candidates when just searching for 'George' with an occupation of coach...
Julia
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I just wanted to add a couple of pieces of new information I've recently come across, in case it helps.
Firstly, having learned of Amelia SLACK/SMITH'S marriage in 1869, I just had to order the birth certs of Annie and John PALMER who were supposedly her children.
Well it seems they were John and Mary PALMER'S after all!!! So why say in the parish records that they were the children of Amelia SMITH??? ??? When I found that record very early in my research into this family, I didn't know of any siblings for Mary, so having Amelia's name gave me more to go on in finding her family!
Secondly, and more pertinent to George SLACK's occupation, is that he is down as a Hawker/Pedlar on ALL of his children's baptism records, not just those following the 1851 census in which he said he was a coachmaker!
So to recap, he married Amelia CARNARTON in Jan 1842 and put down coachmaker as his, and his father's, occupation. He also signed his name, which I think is very significant. How many hawkers could write, do you think!
Their first child Ann was born later that year but wasn't christened until 6 Sep 1844, by which time George was a Hawker.
Three more children were christened before the 1851 census at which George was recorded as being a Pedlar.
Then came the 1851 census, and George was suddenly a coachmaker again?! ???
The baptism of the next child in 1852 sees him, once again, as a Hawker, and so it continues!
Another loose end which has been bugging me throughout, is where George was in 1841.
If he was outside of Cornwall then it could be impossible to find him, but I did come across an entry for a George (surname unknown) born about 1801, living as one of 5 apparently single men, in a house with a variety of people, in St Austell!
Better still, he was a HAWKER!!!! ;D The only downside was that he was also supposedly born in Ireland! ::)
Anyway, I just thought I'd throw that out in case anyone is interested!
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Hello all,
I'm a direct descendant of Joseph Antonio Emidy. I have a lot of information on the Emidy line if anyone is in need. I saw some postings about Carnarton. Margery Carnarton married Thomas Hutchings Emidy. He was my 4th Great Grandfather. Joseph was the 5th. They were married in Cornwall and had 6 children. Cecilia, Francis Antonio, Eliza, Joseph Antonio, Richard Samuel, ans James William.
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Hi Kmaney
We are so happy you found us.... where are you and what can you tell us of the Emidy side .... how fabulous that you are part of the famous Emidy Family ....
deb ;D
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Hi
Just a quick comment.
I have a full set of the Non-Conformist Registers transcribed and published by Sheila Townsend in 2000 and there are no "Carnartons".
If anyone else wants anything looked up, then just let me know.
All the best
Chris Penrose
Hi - I have just registered with RootsChat after reading this amazing journey - if I can get half the help you guys have given here, I will be ecstatic! :D Congratulations to everyone who has had a part.
My search is in no way related - but had to tell Chris I first came across his name in the Penrose section of RootsChat (earlier this afternoon - my first visit to RootsChat). That's the line I need to follow, so maybe I will see you over there. I am extremely interested in the non-conformist register, as I have been trying to find my g-grandparents' marriage for about 10 years now - with no luck. And I do know there were Methodists in the family ... so maybe I will chat with you on the Penrose site.
However, one reason this amazing story has given me hope and driven me to register is that I also have possible 'dodgey goings on' in my story - the g-grandparents. After 10 years of research, I discovered a few weeks ago that the Penrose line I have been following MAY NOT BE the right one - I just discovered he was married to someone else, and disappeared between censuses - his wife is listed as a widow in the following census. Aaaargh!!!! ??? :'( But did he REALLY die - or did he run away?? There's a family gossip that g-grandmother was a school teacher who ran off with a travelling minstrel - so was g-grandfather the husband who disappeared between censuses, and his ex-wife called herself a widow to cover the shame of being deserted? The g-grandparents had their first child when he was 47 and she was 38. She was definitely still a spinster, living with her sister, when she was 31. AND - both were born in Cornwall (St Agnes & Breage), with first child born in Swansea, Wales. Many years and many miles to trace the marriage. :'( But YOUR story here has given me new hope and incentive.
Thank you so much for such an interesting couple of hours' reading. (Shame about the neglected housework.) And good luck to you all. I'll check back every so often to see how it's going.
PS - my grandfather brought my father to Australia in 1923, so I'm trying to do this from a distance. Did spend some time in Truro, St Agnes, Breage, Germoe in 2000, but found NO gravestones, and not much at the registry offices in Truro. Very frustrating.
Bye from Down Under. 8)
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Hi Brissygal ;D
we are so glad you found us .... welcome!!!
We all love a good 'hunt' so to speak...since I first posted this thread I have become addicted to searching and would love to help with yours .... We all love a good mystery especially if there are 'goings on" hee hee ;D
Why don't you post a new thread with dates, names, POB and as much info as you have. Once we have all the info then we can start untangling the mystery ....
sorry to hear you may have been searching people who may not be yours... :-\
look forward to seeing your post
Deb :)
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Hi Deb
Thanks for the offer. :D I posted some of the details last night at Cornwall > Cornwall Lookup Requests > Marriage John Penrose - Philippa Polglase. To save duplication, would be best to check there. Or I can give more details off line. Am rushing off to work now. :-[ Will be in touch.
Brissygal 8)
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I still have the set of Non-Conformist Register Books, although I don't know that I will keep them for too long. I don't refer to them enough, so they are better off being with someone who can make use of them.
Kind Regards
Chris Penrose
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Marriages Mar 1842
KNORITON Amelia Truro 9 363
SLACK George Truro 9 363
sylvia
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Hi Sylvia,
We started out in March 2006 (9 pages ago) with this marriage and have moved quite a way since then, finding Amelia and sorting out this complex family. ;)
Suggest you have a thorough read of this fascinating thread.
Kris :D
-
oops
i did not see the name spelt as knoriton
as usual i start at the wrong end
sorryyyyyyyyyyyyy
sylvia
its a great story
-
1841 census kenwyn
Amelia carnaton born 1817 cornwall
freebmd
Amelia Carnarton 1842 died truro
oops is here again
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Hi maidmarian oops,
As Kris said:
Suggest you have a thorough read of this fascinating thread.
The 1842 marriage was first identified in the original post which started this thread back in March 2006.
The 1841 census was first indentified in response #10 and expanded upon in response #12.
The 1842 death was first identified in response #12.
All of the above are on Page 1 of this 9-page thread.
JAP
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recieved and understood :'( ::)
sorry i had the info in my drafts
i have now removed all traces of this subject from my memory bank and computer
oops
-
... i have now removed all traces of this subject from my memory bank and computer
oops
A pity, as it truly is an interesting and fascinating thread. And may yet have more twists and turns - who knows.
JAP
-
i will start from scratch
thanks
sylvia
-
just passing
CARLYON surname cornwall
===========================
1861
Amelia Slack 33 born Islington Middlesex
George Slack 33
George Slack 13
Amalia Slack 11
John Slack 8
Arthur Slack 10
Charles Slack 6
Clarissa Slack 1
1851 census st giles
George Smith 47
Amelia Smith 39 birth bloomsbury
Emma E Smith 9
Esther Smith 14
Raymond G Smith 19
=============================
1841 census
Amelia Smith 30
George Smith 30
Raymond Smith 9
Amelia Smith 4
just in case its been noted[sorry]
sylvia
-
On the 1861 census George Angus Slack and Amelia nee Gosson and their family were living in Kennington Lambeth. George was a hairdresser. The family were in Westminster on the 1851 census. George was aged 27 and gave his birthplace as Walworth (Southwark) Surrey.
On the 1841 census George was an apprentice to a hairdresser in Clerkenwell - he was one of 56 George Slacks who appear on the 1841 census index - though only 3 were in Middlesex at the time.
The 1851 census shows 8 George Smiths with wives who were called Amelia.
Regards
Valda
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maidmarianoops, What is the point you are making with the posting of that census information ??? I'm puzzled ...
The mystery with which this thread began is spelled out in the very first post.
The original poster told us she had been searching for the parents of her Gggmother Mary (SMITH) PALMER b 1858. She had located Mary (as SMITH) with her parents in the 1861 census in Cornwall; she had then located Mary's parents and some older siblings in the 1851 census in Cornwall as SLACK; she had then located the 1842 marriage of Mary's parents - George SLACK & Amelia KNORRTON; but she had been unable to trace George (whose occupation changed from coachmaker to hawker) or Amelia any further and she had been unable to find why the family changed its surname from SLACK to SMITH.
Much light has been shed on the mystery over the previous 9 pages (especially with the clarification of Amelia's maiden surname as CARNATON - variously spelled).
The relevant 1851 and 1861 census entries (in Cornwall) for George & Amelia and family were posted in the original post which began the thread.
The relevant 1871, 1881, and 1891 census entries (in Cornwall) were posted in Response #3.
And possibilities have been suggested for entries in the 1841 census for George and for Amelia before their 1842 marriage (in Cornwall).
JAP
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the amelia smith and slack were born in middlesex not cornwall
sylvia
-
???
The parents of Mary SMITH who married John PALMER were George SLACK (or SMITH) and Amelia KNORTTON (CARNATON) who married in Cornwall in 1842.
George's birth place in the 1851, 1861 and 1871 Cornwall censuses (he died in 1872) was London.
Amelia's birth place in the five censuses held after her marriage to George in 1842 and prior to her death in 1894 was Cornwall (1851 - Falmouth, 1861 - Falmouth, 1871 - Kenwyn, 1881 - Truro, 1891 - Truro.
-
Hi Maidmarionoops,
Thanks for adding those searches, but we have found the George and Amelia we are looking for, in all the censuses from 1851 until their deaths, and we are 100% sure we have the correct people.
We have the right people, the only thing we haven't found out, as JAP pointed out is WHY the SLACK name changed to SMITH.
Are you also a descendant of George and Amelia?
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Hi Cousin
Julia...dahhhhhling....
I have been in touch with a friend of our Penfold family ... Bessie Palmer= William Penfold. She is the friend of Millie who is a daughter Sophie Penfold (sister of my nan)...sorry confusing the issue here ...anyway ...this friend is in London and has offered to do look ups for me ...she is going on Thursday to find the baptismal record of our George Slack/Smith .... dec 1803 Holborn London ....maybe we will discover something new!!!!!
deb
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Hi deb,
That is good!
When I re-read this thread - when it came up again (!) - I noticed that was something which was still in the "to do" basket. Hope your friend also checks out the records of George's presumed brothers; John (7), Charles (3) and George (1), sons of William SLACK & Ann, all having been christened on 29 Dec 1803 at St Andrew Holborn. Though there's still no proof that this is the right George, I guess.
JAP
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Hi JAP
I have also reread the whole thread again and taken notes of 'to do' stuff :)
I am not certain who said what and when and on which post but I did take in that a baptismal record of George and his 2 brothers, John and Charles, might shed some further light on George's dad occupation ...we may even find a mother's maiden name ...who knows .... keeping fingers very crossed LOL.
I am hoping that this is the correct George Slack/Smith ...I think there was a census record where he does state Holborn ...Or ..maybe I should reread everything again .... ;D :D ;)
deb
ps; I am hoping Lorraine will look up his brothers as well ... I gave her the info..... we need a 'fingers crossed' smilie please LOL
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Hi Deb,
I don't recall Holborn - but might well have forgotten! In your first post you just said 'London' as the birthplace for George in the 1851 and 1861; Valda, a couple of posts later, gave 'London City' as his birthplace in the 1871.
What we were hoping to get from the Holborn baptisms was, as you say, the occupation of the father William - and hoping that it would be coachmaker (because from the marriage certificate of George & Amelia we know that George's father was William, a coachmaker). But who knows what else might turn up!
Another "to do" was to clarify the age of the Amelia CARNARTON who died in 1842 (Truro, June quarter, Vol 9, page 245). fizzybubble suggested an email to the CRO - and said that they will give out the age for free; the more expensive option, of course, would be to buy the certificate.
I suppose, just for completeness, it would be nice to have the death certs of both George and Amelia - English death certs are pretty uninformative but just occasionally there's some useful clue e.g. from the name of the informant ...
Good luck with the baptisms,
JAP
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ok i am still reading
parents
george slack and amelia
AMELIA
MAR 1845
Chr 30 JUN 1845 Saint Martin In The Fields
sylvia
-
Sylvia
it is a very long thread and difficult to get your head around all the information, but basically there are two George Slacks living at the same time married to Amelias (not surprisingly since Slack is not a particularly rare surname).
We are only interested in George Slack living in Cornwall married to Amelia Carnarton. We are not interested in George (Angus) Slack the hairdresser in London, one of whose children was Amelia who was born in 1845 in St Martin in the Fields.
I have already given you the basic details on George Angus Slack in my previous message to show you the information was not relevant to the thread and that this was a different couple.
We really have exhausted on this thread all the census information that could be found - with the exception of finding George Slack (coachmaker) on the 1841 census.
We have also found all the civil registration information (excepting overtime descendants down through the maternal lines).
Our interest now is pre civil registration and censuses. It is not information that can be found electronically on the internet which is why we are awaiting the early C19th baptism information from the actual registers for any further information that can be found there. Information not contained in the electronic indexes online.
Regards
Valda
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Hi
silly question .... fizzybubble said that the CRO would give out age of death for free.... would they do this over the phone or do you HAVE to email them?
I am going to order the death certs of George and Amelia Slack/Smith....you never know what may turn up. Maybe I should order their children's birth certs (those born between 1851 and 1861), just to see when he may have changed his occupationto hawker.
deb :)
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Hiya Deb,
CRO has to be emailed. If you consider the HUGE number of enquiries they get, there is no way they could answer everything by phone.
Fizzy
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Hi deb,
Who knows about email vs phone inf at the CRO - but email would at least give the recipient time to do an unpressured lookup! And now fizzybubble has confirmed this.
I'm getting a bit grumpy with myself reading through this thread again and again :D - but I think we did have some info re George's occupation (not to mention name!), and the time it changed, on various certs and censuses? If only I'd realized this thread would become so complex I certainly would have made these people into a little subset on my genie program (TMG) ;)
Let's wait and see what your friend finds (if anything) in the St Andrews Holborn baptisms - and then continue on.
All the very very best,
JAP
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Hi everyone,
Deb, it would be lovely if your lady can find George's baptism.
Re his occupation, I don't know if the birth certs would be different, but according to the baptismal records of all his children, he's put pedlar/hawker. in fact, the only time he's mentioned coachmaker is on his marriage cert and 1851 census! (see page 9).
What does everyone think of this entry as a possibility for George in 1841?
HO107; Piece 146; Book: 1; Civil Parish: St Austell; County: Cornwall; Enumeration District: 1; Folio: 13; Page: 19; Line: 8;
I know it says he was born in Ireland, but whose to say he didn't lie?!
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Hi Cous :D
I hope we get more info on our Georgie Boy ::) there is no way to tell if that's him in 1841, but the fact that he is in the St Austell area may be a good sign...
I wonder if Highspeeddeath (HSD) found any more relevant info .... , remember he seems to think that George Slack was still living in Holborn in 1841 with his first wife ... He also is the only one who has spoken to a LIVE Rellie, his dad, who said his dad (Ernest) knew of the name change but would not say why.....
ummm well I am trying hard to be patient :-X :-\ , hopefully Lorraine will send us all good info ....
deb
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Hi Everyone :)
Back from 5 days at the beach.... I have heard from Lorraine..This is what she says..
"I searched the parish records for St Andrews Holborn and found the following entry
John son of William Slack and Ann said to be 7 years old
Charles son of William Slack and Ann said to be 3 years old
George son of William and Ann Slack said to be 3 months old
The baptism was on the date you said and the family were living in a place called Tash Court.
I have a Regency era map book of London and Tash Court is shown as a very small tenement type area in central Holborn.
I then searched marriages to see what I could find for William and Ann
I started from 1790 taking into account the fact that John may have been born in 1796. I only found one possible
William SMITH from the parish of West Ham in the county of Essex married Ann CHANCE of the Parish of St Andrews at St Andrews Holborn on 4th November 1798 the witnesses were John and Sarah Davis.
There was nothing else that was even close.
When I have more time I will go and have another look, sorry this wasnt much help
Lorraine"
Hopefully she can dig up more for us .... ;D
deb
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Hi Deb,
Interesting!!! I guess it didn't say in the records what William's profession was, or you would have mentioned it. I wonder why the IGI said George was aged 1? ???
Strange that the name SMITH turns up again, but we have no reason to think that George's parents also changed their names.
I hope not, as I really don't want to start looking for SMITHS in London!!! :o
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Hi Julia
I also noticed the age of George when he was christened.... but then again he never was consistant with his age in the census ::)
I have asked Lorraine to recheck to see if an occupation turns up somewhere!
I have also rechecked the 1841, looking for George's siblings, (in hopes that George may be around), I did find a Charles, about the right age living in London as a cabinet maker ... can't find any coach builders , but will recheck.
William Smith = Ann Chance, he was from Essex... where would we even start LOL
Deb :)
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Hello to you all
Thought it was time I introduced myself, I am the person whom Deb has mentioned in London, I have been doing Family research for a number of years and recently started doing a tree for my best friend. She is the granddaughter of Sophie Penfold and a very close cousin to Deb,
Deb has posted the result of my recent trip to the guildhall library and in answer to someones question, there was no occupation shown for William.
The marriage of William Smith and Ann Chance was the only marriage I could find where the bride and groom had the same name as the parents of the Slack/Smith boys. I hope it is not too much of a red herring. In the period that I looked at in Marriages and Births there were no other entries in the name of Slack which means the family were probably not local to that church, normally you would see all of the brothers and sister getting married and having families.
In my experience the fact that the three boys were baptised at the same time and when two were older normally implies that the family was new to that church or area so who knows where they came from. The other problem with that area is that there are so many churches, In fact one on most streets in the City of London and so they could have married or had other children baptised at a church around the corner and it would make it diffcult to find them.
Next time I have the chance to bunk off work early, I will go again and look in the next nearest churches to St Andrews to see if I can find anything. Will post again if I get anything new, In the meantime as long as you are not expecting a quick turnaround, I am about a 5 min walk from the Westminster City Archive and 4 tube stops from the City of London archives so I am always happy to look stuff up
Lorraine
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Hi Lorraine,
Thank you for your help in this mystery.
I've been trying anything I can think of might help, but keep drawing blanks. ::)
The surname profiler website says that in 1881 the name SLACK was mostly concentrated in the Derbyshire area, and surrounding counties.
It might help in narrowing down where they came to London from.
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Hi to all,
I just surfed into this thread so I haven't had chance to read all 11 pages yet but have seen sufficient to jump in as I can link into the SLACK family mentioned living in London on a couple of the pages, they are on my husbands line which I researched for him a few yrs back.
In brief, his 3x gt-grandparents were
George Angus SLACK (hairdresser) = Amelia Gosson (see FreeBMD Islington June Qt 1843)
their daughter was Amelia Elizabeth SLACK b. 02 March 1845 St Martin in the Fields, Westminster, London.
Amelia Elizabeth Slack married John James Evans 21st Nov 1869 Saint Anne Soho, Westminster. They had a daughter called Amelia Rose Evans:
Amelia Rose Evans married William Charles Wall 17th April 1892 St George the Martyr Queen Square, London. They had a son also William Charles Wall who was my husbands grandfather.
Hope this helps :-) I'd love to hear from any other descendants and can show a more detailed tree via GenesReunited.
best wishes, Val Wall.
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Hi Gardengirl,
The family you mention has been discussed on this thread.
But no connexion has been found between it and the 'Cornish Mystery' SLACK/SMITH family.
If - after reading the 11 pages (and it's quite a complicated story!) - you are able to make a link I'm sure we'll all be fascinated. Especially the descendants of George SLACK (later SMITH, a coachmaker and later hawker, born London) who married Amelia CARNATON (born Cornwall) in Cornwall in 1842 - but also all the rest of us who have been caught up in the 'Cornish Mystery'. ;D
Kind regards,
JAP
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Thanks Jap,
yes it's a complicated story and my head was spinning after only 4 pages, lol.
I did find the census info for my husbands Slack's in the thread so that was a nice little bonus, lookup's without asking hey! lol ;-)
I've no idea if there is a connection to the Cornwall Slack's, I haven't got much further than George the hairdresser, only recently returning to my husbands lines.
I do have a wonderful Huguenot line (du Hamel, Ang to Hammell) from Gwinear in Cornwall of my own so I'll be back to the Cornwall board soon :)
regards Val.
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http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~cricket5/hel_baptisms_c.htm
some carnarton and 1 caenarton
sylvia
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http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~cricket5/hel_baptisms_c.htm
some carnarton and 1 caenarton
sylvia
And also one CARNARTHON and some CARNARTENs. sylvia, I'm afraid that site has already been mentioned on this thread and the people have been followed up.
JAP
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Hi Everyone :)
I'm back with death certs:
Kenwyn, Truro
13 June 1894, Charles Street, Truro: Amelia SMITH, 78 years ,Widow of George Smith, Licensed Pedlar...
cause of death: Cerebral apoplexy :'(
Informant: A. Carveth,daughter, present at death, 12 James Place, Truro
registered: 2 july 1894
St Clements, Truro
27 feb 1872 Pydar Street, Truro (ooo my mum used to live in Pydar street)
George SLACK, 69 years, Pedlar
cause of death: Haematemesia ??? :-\
informant: Jane Maunder (signed with her mark), present at the death, Pydar Street registered: 28 feb 1872
Okay who was Jane Maunder, why was she living at the same house ...why didn't Amelia or one of the children register George's death ? ::)
need to rush off ...will be back ...
deb
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From the information you give it doesn't actually say Jane Maunder was living in the same house.
The 1871 census gives Jane Maunder 43 the wife of Thomas a shoemaker in Pydar Street.
Though like most women on censuses there is no occupation for Jane she may very well have supplemented the family's income by nursing within the local community. She has no children present in the family home so would be available to stay overnight nursing the dying and perhaps those in childbirth. Like many such women she also performed the service of registering the death. The registrar would likely know her and know she had experience of death and illness and could describe symptoms. The registrar would not therefore consider that there was anything suspicious in the cause of death. By 1875 a doctor legally had to certify the death and any informant had to give their relationship to the deceased.
'Someone present at the death could simply have been the person who made a living by sitting with the dying and laying them out after death, or a close friend or neighbour and is not necessarily a relative.'
http://home.clara.net/dixons/Certificates/deaths.htm#COL7
'Hematemesis: The medical term for bloody vomitus.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hematemesis
Regards
Valda
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Thanks Valda :)
I was jumping to conclusions again .... :-X :-\ ::)
also thanks for the medical term .... poor George !
back later
deb
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Ah, but Deb, it has solved another part of the puzzle... namely what happened to the eldest daughter Ann! ;D
If you remember, she was last seen in the 1871 census married to Francis BASSETT. She had had a son with him before their marriage in 1870 (William Francis) who had died by this census.
Then she seemed to have vanished. Now, thanks to her being the informant of her mother's death I found her in London in 1881 living with Bennett Carveth and a 3 year old daughter, Ellen.
In 1891 they were back in Truro.
In 1901 he is down as Benjamin Carveth with a new wife, Susan. Ellen is still living with them, in Truro.
There is a possible death of Ann CARVOLTH in Redruth RD, Jun 1897 aged 54, but I'm not sure Ann and Susan aren't possibly the same person!! Ann's age goes off in 1891 but she is recorded as a fishmonger, as is Susan in 1901, who's age tallies with Ann in 1881!!
FreeBMD isn't throwing up a marriage either, but taking her past record I'm not too surprised! The father of her 2 elder daughters, Emma & Annie, is reputed to be Joseph Burton.
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Hiya Julia
So glad something came of ordering the certs ..woohooo ...when I first got them I was wondering about the elder daughter who was the informant ...I know you had traced her marriage but I could not recall that surname at all ...I will look at the census tomorrow ... Late here ,had a busy day and a busy day tomorrow ,,,soon kids will be back at school and I can PLAY ;D
keep us informed ....
later
deb xxx
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both 1881 census
Ann Carveth 38
Bennett Carveth 38
Ellen Carveth born st pancras age3
=======================
Ann Carveth 54
Annie Carveth 15
Bennett Carveth 57
Chas. Carveth 19
Ellen Carveth 17 born truro
just to add to the mystery
[mystery solved]father and son]
1871
Ann Carveth 45
Bennett Carveth 48
Bennett Carveth 22
Charles Carveth 9
Elizabeth Carveth 20
Ellen Carveth 7
F Carveth 18
John Carveth 16
Mary A Carveth 5
===========
death Bennett Carveth 1824 1903 Oct-Nov-Dec Truro Cornwall
sylvia
wait there's more
i think this is a different family
1901 census
Benjamin Carveth 56
Ellen Carveth 23 Ellen Carveth born 1863 truro
Susan Carveth 57
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Hi Sylvia,
Yes, those are the ones I found too.
1881 St Pancras
Bennet CARVETH 38 Truro
Ann CARVETH 38 Truro
Ellen CARVETH 3 St Pancras
Bennet was born to Bennet & Ann reg Jun 1849
1891 Kenwyn
Bennet CARVETH 44 Truro
Ann CARVETH 41 Truro
Ellen CARVETH 13 St Pancras
1901 St Clement
Benjamin CARVETH 56 Truro
Susan CARVETH 57 Truro
Ellen CARVETH 23 London
-
There is a Susan CARVETH death in 1916 aged 74 which fits for Ann's birthdate too, in case she did just change her name - well, it is a family trait after all!!! ::)
Ellen married later in 1901
The Bennet death in 1903 is that of the father Bennet Snr aged 79.
-
Hi Everyone
Okay ... we have in 1871:
Francis Bassett head mar 28 butcher b Helstone
Ann wife mar 28 b Truro
Annie dau 7
In 1881:
we have Ann now married to Bennett Carveth living in St Pancras, with daughter Ellen
I was trying to find the death of Francis Bassett between 1871 and 1881... to no avail, then I found this in 1881:
Francis Bassett UNM lodger, BUTCHER 36 b Helstone
living in Calenick Street, Kenwyn,Truro
as you said , Julia , there doesn't seem to be a marriage for Ann Bassett and Bennett Carveth..... also why did he , Bennett, change his name to Benjamin? That is if we have the correct people ...... Ohhhh nooooo , not another mystery :-\
I need to reread this all over again ::) ;D
deb
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If he just gave the name 'Ben' to the enumerator, they could have assumed he was a Benjamin, which is a much more common name?
Or it could be a different family, but the daughter Ellen seems to fit.
It is possible that Ann left again, and is living under who-knows-what name!
I think that's the correct Francis BASSETT. If he just ran off and left her (or she left him!!), it would explain the absence of a marriage to Bennet CARVETH!!
-
hello again
i think this is what we look like at the momemt
sylvia
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I HAVE PUT IT IN SEMBLANCE OF ORDER
Thomas Henry Carveth 1735
son Bennet
18 Aug 1777 in Ladock
birth
Bennet Carveth 1849 TRURO
1841
John Carveth 49
Hanna Carveth 48
Bennett Carveth 18
Elizabeth Carveth 10
William Carveth 15
Henry Carveth 5
1851
NameAge
Bennett Carveth27
Ann Carveth24
Bennett Carveth2
Elizabeth Carveth6 Mo
1861
Bennett Carveth 39
Ann Carveth 36
Bennett Carveth 12
Elizabeth Carveth 9
James Hy Carveth 7
John Carveth 5
Richard Carveth 9 Mo
1871
Bennett Carveth 48
Ann Carveth 45
Bennett Carveth 22
Elizabeth Carveth 20
F Carveth 18
Charles Carveth 9
John Carveth 16
Ellen Carveth 7
Mary A Carveth 5
1881
Bennett Carveth 57
Ann Carveth 54
Chas. Carveth19
Ellen Carveth17
Annie Carveth15
also 1881 THINK THIS IS SON
Ann Carveth 38
Bennett Carveth 38
Ellen Carveth 3
1891
Bennett Carveth44
Ann Carveth41
Ellen Carveth 13
1891 also
Bennett Carveth 68
Ann Carveth 64
Ellen Carveth 27
1901
Bennet Carveth 79
I THINK THIS IS A SEPERATE FAMILY
1901
Susan Carveth 57
Benjamin Carveth carpenter 56 Ellen Carveth 23
SYLVIA
Benjamin Carveth
Est Birth Year1858
Year of Death 1903 AGE 45
Apr/May/Jun
-
hiya OOPS ;D
Thanks so much for that .... It is very late here ... 2am actually ...will get back to you soon ,,,,, thanks sooo much for taking an interest
deb ;D :D
ps: love the pics .,,,,,, that is me boss eyed and pulling my hair out ! LOL
-
just snippits
Truro St Georges
24 Oct 1849
birth
Amelia SLACK
George Amelia
===============
===============
Kenwyn
8 Dec 1823
marriage
Charles CARNARTON
Mary DUFF
William Venning witnesses
Thomas Heard
====================
Kenwyn
3 Oct 1824
babtism
Amelia CARNARTON
parents Charles Mary
Charles Street
========================
death
Kenwyn
1 May 1848
Amelia SLACK
17m
Charles Street
=================
death
Erth, St.
11 Nov 1903
George SMITH
82
St Erth
============
just in case
sylvia
-
Thank you Maidmarionoops!
I didn't have the burial of baby Amelia SLACK in my records! 8)
-
Hello,
I'm interested in the DENNIS/CARNENTON families mentioned here from the DENNIS side of things. My email is:
MODERATOR COMMENT: email address removed to avoid spam and other abuses. Please use personal message system to share email addresses and other personal details. Thank You
and my genealogical website is at: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~ricksmith61/smith.html
Please look under DENNIS Kenwyn and Truro areas.
Kind regards
Rickk
-
Part 2
If you register with
http://www.familyhistoryonline.net/
which is where family history societies are putting further records (the Federation of Family History Societies website). You can look for free at the index for Carnarton of Cornish records placed there by the Cornwall FHS - burials, baptisms and censuses - which is how I know a Charles Carnarton married in Cornwall in 1823 (not on the IGI). If you pay a nominal fee you can see the outline of the actual record (the sort of detail you get on the IGI).
If Margery Carnartons will move conveniently to Mary Carnartons life would be simpler. There is on the Cornwall marriage index a marriage of a Margery Carnarton in 1827.
Parish Kenwyn Thomas EMIDY Date 16 Aug 1827 Wife Margery CARNARTON
Now this is where it starts to get very very interesting. Emidy is surprise surprise an exceedingly rare surname.
1841 census HO107/147/14 Place: Powder-Cornwall Enumeration District: 4
Civil Parish: Kenwyn Truro Ecclesiastical Parish: -
Folio: 60 Page: 7
Charles Street
EMIDY Thomas M 35 Musician Cornwall
EMIDY Margery F 40 Cornwall
Page: 61/8 EMIDY Cecelia F 13 Cornwall
EMIDY Francis M 10 Cornwall
EMIDY Eliza F 7 Cornwall
EMIDY Joseph M 6 Cornwall
EMIDY Richard M 4 Cornwall
EMIDY James M 2 Cornwall
FRANKLING Thomas M 20 Shoemaker Cornwall
1851 census HO107 1910 folio 333
Charles Street Kenwyn Cornwall
Thomas Emidy 45 Falmouth, Cornwall, Head Married Musician
Margarey Emidy 50 Helstone, Cornwall, Wife Married
Eliza Emidy 18 Truro, Cornwall, Daughter Dressmaker
Joseph Emidy 16 Truro, Cornwall, Son Musician
Richard Emidy 13 Truro, Cornwall, Son Musician
James Emidy 12 Truro, Cornwall, Son
Julia Emidy 5 Truro, Cornwall, Granddaughter
1861 census RG9 1559 folio 47
Charles Street Kenwyn Cornwall
Thomas Emidy 55 Falmouth, Cornwall, Head Married Musician
Margery Emidy 65 Helston, Cornwall, Wife Married
From the IGI
THOMAS HUTCHINS EMIDY
Birth: 06 JUL 1805
Christening: 08 DEC 1805 Falmouth, Cornwall
Father: JOSEPH EMIDY
Mother: JENIFER
I think it is at this point you really want to prove the Carnarton connection some how. Go to
http://www.jonroseweb.com/f_projects_emidy.html
I think you are really going to find it very very interesting!!!!!!!
Regards
Valda
hi i think eliza emidy is my great- great- grandmother. if i can find out if eliza married a man with the surname paul she had a daughter mary. eliza was a dressmaker and her daughter mary was a tailoress trousers who married a man named garcia who was my great grandad they had a son robert who was my grandad it is all very confusing to me as i only found out this on thursday when i was at a family funeral if you could help i would be grateful
-
Hi Rick and Okey
Hoe fab that we are all connected .
Rick I have not looked into the Dennis side of the family ... I would love to share with you. :D
Okie...Welcome to Rootschat ...you will have a fabulous time here ....everyone is willing to share details and help with any research ....Please post all the details you have on your Eliza Emidy? How fantastic to be related to a famous Emidy !
deb ;D
-
There were four Eliza Emidys on the 1861 census.
Eliza aged 28 born Truro who was a servant in Falmouth (the Eliza of okey's post - the daughter of Thomas Hutchinson Emidy)
Eliza aged 43 born Truro who was staying with her sister in Everton Liverpool
Eliza aged 11 born Truro who was staying with her aunt in Everton Liverpool
same household for both these Elizas with Cecilia Emidy aged 45 as head of house, born Truro.
Eliza aged 34 born london who was the wife of James H Emidy aged 53 born Falmouth. They were in Norwich.
The two straightforward Eliza Emidy marriages on FreeBMD both in Liverpool
Marriages Jun 1866
EMIDY Eliza R W.Derby 8b 658
either
BUZZA Charles W. Derby 8b 658
or
SPARROW Henry W. Derby 8b 658
Marriages Mar 1880
Emidy Elizabeth Mary W. Derby 8b 696
either
Langshaw Thomas W Derby 8b 696
or
Wardle Edward W. Derby 8b 696
A possible for the Garcia family? Is this the family?
1901 census RG13 3420 folio 34
11 in 4 Court College Lane Liverpool
Mary A Garcia 33 Head Married Tailoress Trousers
Andrew Garcia 15 Son National telephone labourer
Robert Garcia 13 Son
Eliza Garcia 2 Daughter
all born Liverpool
1891 census RG12 2910 folio 12
4 ? 10 Court Gilbert Street Liverpool
Eliza Johnson 49 Wife Tailoress London
M A Garcia 23 Granddaughter Married Tailoress Liverpool
Andrew Garcia 5 Grandson Liverpool
Phillip Garcia 3 Grandson Liverpool
John Garcia 1 grandson Liverpool
Possible marriage - it would have to be a second marriage for Avelino (born Spain) who was an outfitter in Liverpool on the 1881 census. You would need a birth certificate of one of the children to be sure.
Marriages Sep 1885
Barrio Servanda Manchester 8d 409
Garcia Avelino Perez Manchester 8d 409
HAYES Mary Ann Manchester 8d 409
Jordan Thomas Manchester 8d 409
Death of his first wife and son
Deaths Dec 1883
Garcia Mary 30 Liverpool 8b 85
Garcia Severino 6 Liverpool 8b 86
Regards
Valda
-
Hi
In 1881 Avelino Garcia b Spain is with his wife Mary aged 29 b Cheshire, Birkenhead. Son, Sevelina is 3 b Liverpool.
This is possibly Avelino's first marriage;
Avelino P Garcia and on the same page Mary Kelly Dec q 1876, Cheshire, Birkenhead.
I don't see a marriage of Eliza Emidy to a person named Paul.
deb
-
Or
Marriages Dec 1882
Gracia Peter Liverpool 8b 227
either
Guy Ellen Liverpool 8b 227
or
PAUL Mary Anne Liverpool 8b 227
Can't see any possible census entries as Gracia and Mary Anne. The Mary Ann of the 1891 and 1901 censuses would have been 14 in 1882 legally able to marry but very young to do so.
Regards
Valda
-
Hi Valda
Good one! Although, as you say, rather young.
In 1881 I found a Mary A Paul , 13 , scholar, b Liverpool with her widowed mother , Eliza, 39, tailoress ....but born Portugal. :-\ The occupation seems to fit but age and POB for Eliza is completely off.
will keep looking
deb
-
Hi Valda
I seem to be going around in circles !
In 1871 I see Charles Buzza mar 26 , manager in cotton factory, b truro. He is with wife Eliza R , 25 b Truro, and children William E, 3 and Susan M 2 months, both born Lancashire. They are in Bradford, Manchester.
This couple must refer to marriage you found previously.
"Marriages Jun 1866
EMIDY Eliza R W.Derby 8b 658
either
BUZZA Charles W. Derby 8b 658
or
SPARROW Henry W. Derby 8b 658"
there is also this family in Lancs in 1891:
John Buzza warehouseman b Truro with wife Cecelia (nee Emidy) 42, b Liverpool. They have children Joseph Emidy Buzza 14 and John W 5. Also staying with them is Maria J Emidy, sister-in-law, 44 b Truro.
I am still trying to find Eliza Emidy b c 1834 and her marriage to Mr. Paul/l
The Eliza, from Portugal seems to be with husband Robert in 1871 ...this time she is born Liverpool. mary Ann Paul , dau is 3 b Liverpool
I just can't seem to sort it out right now ... :-\
deb
-
census 1861
ROYAL HOTEL MARKET ST FALMOUTH
Eliza Emidy abt 1833 Truro, Cornwall, England
============Servant Falmouth, Cornwall
=======================================
======================================
1881 England Census
Name:Eliza Emidy
ABT 60
Est Birth abt 1821
Head
Truro
Ardwick
Lancashire
301 Ashton Old Rd
Reg Chorlton
Sub Ardwick
Household
Cecilia Buzza 31 NIECE
Jane C. Buzza 1 GT NIECE
John Buzza 38 NEPHEW WAREHOUSEMAN
Joseph A. Buzza 4 GREAT NEPHEW
Eliza Emidy 60 HEAD GREENGROCER
Maria J. Emidy 36 NIECE DRESSMAKER AGE COULD BE 56
BITS AND PIECES
SYLVIA
1841 CENSUS KENWYN DISTRICT 4
THOMAS EMIDY 35 MUSICIAN
MARGERY " 40
Cecelia Emidy 1828 Kenwyn Cornwall
Eliza Emidy 1834 "
Francis Emidy 1831 "
James Emidy 1839 "
Joseph Emidy 1835, "
Richard Emidy 1837 "
=================================
=================================
ALSO ON SAME PAGE
MARY CARNATON 40
CHARLES " 15
WILLIAM ' 13
THOMAS 12
HENRY 6
MARY 4
EMILY 1
==================
==================
1841 CENSUS
Eliza Emidy 23
Est 1818
ALL
born Kenwyn Cornwall
Cecelia Emidy28
Eliza Emidy23
Jane Emidy60
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hi
i have found children that george and amelia slack had on the 1951 census
Amelia Slack 35
Amelia Slack 2
Ann Slack 9
George Slack 40
William Slack 7
don't know whether that is any help but....
good luck
dee
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hello all, we recently chanced across this thread whilst doing a search for the Carnartons. We have Mary Jane Carnarton born 1827, with parents Benjamin and Mary. However some pages back we had mention of the problem that we have been having for some time, and that is if Benjamin is in fact Abednego, why the name change. Also why did he go from butcher to waterman. Also Mary Jane married on the 4/jul/1850 to a mariner called William Ivey. PS Love this thread.
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Hi Paulaandtye
welcome to Rootschat ...it is a fabulous place to get help when searching for long gone rellies. ;D
Will have to have a reread , as I have not visited this thread in a while...glad you loved it!!!!!
deb :)
-
Deb ... I just found this ! Fascinating ... and haven't you got a huge amount of info now !
The bit about Emidy was very interesting ...
Keep searching !
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Hi Lydart
i am just so sad that "Okey" the Emidy relation did not respond ...hopefully with this thread coming 'alive' again , she/he will respond!
It's a fascinating thread although, I must admit, in the 'early' days Valda and JAp had me lost ...I had no idea how to do research ;D :-X
deb
PS lydart ...still wish I had a ;D :D horse accident ...
-
Wow Deb...I read the whole thread....interesting stuff...your first "scavenger hunt" sort of..... ;D
mab
-
HELLO AGAIN
SYLVIA
CORNWALL PARISH CLERKS ONLINE
Details of record ID 298888:
Helston
MARRIAGES
25-Sep 1826
Abednego CARNARTON
Helston
Mary LANDERYOU
Helston
banns
C. Opie WITNESS 1
Peter Landeryou WITNESS2
Transcriber Notes:
ref-9PR-p.104-310
Transcriber:
Don Carkyk
THERE ARE 59 ABEDNEGO CHRISTIAN NAMES ON CORNWALL OPC SEARCH FOR MARRIAGES
ONLY PUT ABEDNEGO IN THE SEARCH COLUMN
-
why did i miss this hunt ?
-
Could I just ask JAP what the names of the 3 perrow girls are who have a father called abednego. From 9 th April. Also how did he find them.
-
Hi Perrow
Firstly welcome to Rootschat ! :D
I am not sure if these are the girls that JAP saw ... but from IGI we have these christeningsof children of Abednego Perrow and Margery in Helston;
Bridget Perrow = 25 JUN 1786 Helston
Charity Perrow = 10 FEB 1779 Helston
Elisabeth Perrow = 10 JUL 1774 Helston
There is also this girl d/o Abednego Perrow and Margery christened in Sithney
Grace Perrow = 17 JUN 1781 Sithney
Hope this helps
deb
PS JAP is a girl ;D ...don't worry we all have made the same mistake at some stage !! ::)
-
deb,
Shhhh!! There I thought I was being clever by using my initials and not selecting Lady or Gentleman in my profile.
JAP
-
ooooopppppsss sorry JAP
Isn't it fun to revisit the Carnarton saga ? I was such a newbee then ...I am still in awe of the research done on this thread though... I try to live up to your and Valda's thoroughness , although at times 'silliness' gets through ...
Hope you are well and hope that I found the 'Perrow Girls' you had referred to.
deb
-
Hi Deb,
I can't remember what I found back in April 2006 ;D
But it must have been Elizabeth, Charity and Bridget - and, perrow, it would have been from the IGI (International Genealogical Index) at:
http;//www.familysearch.org .
But I obviously didn't extend my search so didn't find Grace in Sithney.
It would be interesting to see the actual entries in the Parish Registers.
And yes, it certainly was a fascinating saga - and still going! We might all have to read through the thread to refresh our memories.
Welcome aboard, perrow. It will be interesting to see what you have to add!
JAP
-
transcriptions of the parish records available here
http://www.cornwall-opc.org/Par_new/h_k/helston.php
http://www.cornwall-opc.org/Par_new/q_s/sithney.php
there's also a son with first wife and according to one of the marriages, Abednego was a fellmonger.
:)
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Hiya Cousin Deb! ;D
Long time no hear! *waves*
-
I am so grateful to everyone for this information, and apologies to JAP! If I do have anything to add to the huge amount of work already done I will let you know.
-
Julie ... cousin ... hope you are well hugs and kisses for the family ((((( :-* :-* :-* :-*)))))
perrow ...hi ...so glad you came back ... if there is anything firther we can help you with ... just shout or make a new thread on the boards re; your family... everyone is more than willing to help you on your search!
Osprey ..thanks for you links ... you are fab ! I know that from my welsh James family :)
ooo BTW ...I wonder how perrow is related to Britgirl and me ?? ;D
deb
-
by a strange coincidence, 'my' James family was from Helston & Sithney...
;D
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hi all, i placed a reply back on page 13, went off for a trip in the caravan up on the moors, freezing up there. whilst there studied this thread again and again ye and again. i am now convinced that abednago carnarton is benjamin carnarton but would love for someone to tell me the reason for the change of name. if we go back to day one you should all find that if you search HERITAGE.COM and search carnarton you will find a web site called MILLER thatcontains allal the SLACKS and CARNARTONS all the best paul and tye
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Hi Paul and tye , Osprey, Julia, JAP and everyone else reading
I will have to reread this thread ...again ;D
It seems strange that benjamin would change his name to Abednego and also have a major change in occupation .....I wonder if this was around the same time period that my George Slack, coach builder changed his and his family's name to SMITH and his occupation to Hawker!
When is the last time we see Benjamin before he turns into Abednego? 1851 = George Slack, coach builder ... 1861 = George SMITH, Hawker
deb
-
hi all, abednego carnarton (butcher) marries mary landeryou 1827 (whose family are butchers). 1841 census he is benjamin carnarton (boatman). also he is still benjamin on a marriage certificate for his daughter mary jane. cannot find a reference to a birth or death. now i have found a family tree which includes all the carnartons, emidys, and slack/smiths. there is a link also to the former black slave joseph antonio emidy who went on to become a famous violinist.Try this link to an area i am developing, and remember to use the little leaves to open up other areas. paulandtye. www.myheritage.com/site-44463731/carnarton-web-site.
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Hello came across this thread today - and bingo I have the Carnartons in my Family History, so this has bought me much needed research, My Side is the Ivey Family - so any information is a massive bonus!! Thankyou Jill
-
William Ivey According to the 1851 Kenwyn Census piece 1901 folio 313 lived in Carclew Street in Truro he is shown as a Sailor 25 born in St Austell and Married to Mary Jane (nee Carnarton) they have at this time a son who is also called William and is 5months and born in Truro.
In 1861 Kenwyn piece 1559ED 1 folio 9
the family are shown as living in Fairmantle Street Truro
The Family now includes the following children
Mary Daughter aged 9
Sarah daughter 4
Joseph Son aged 2 weeks ( who is my Grandmothers Father)
-
Hi Truromian,
If it helps, Mary Jane & William went on to have another 2 children; Peter Charles in 1864 and Ellen Elizabeth in 1867.
Otherwise, I only have the family of their oldest son William. He married Eliza Solomon in 1870 and had a daughter Elizabeth Ellen with her before her death in 1872.
He remarried Anne Hocking in 1875 and had 9 children with her.
I don't have anything beyond the 1901 census, but I hope that helps a bit.
-
Thankyou so much Britgirl
If you would be happy to share the family of William Ivey (son)
I would appreciate that so so much -
Jill
-
Hi,
William Ivey & Mary Jane had 5 children ;
William
Mary J
Sarah
Joseph
James
What happened to Joseph after his father died & Williams wife Mary Jane come to that?
-
Oh yes they did also have Ellen and Richard.
-
William Ivey m Eliza Solomon Sep 1870 Truro RD. Died Jun 1872 Truro RD.
Daughter Elizabeth Ellen Dec 1870 Truro RD.
Married Anne Hocking 19 July 1875, St Mary's, Truro (he was 24 widow, she 18).
Children:
Catherine Annie Mar 1879 (chr St Paul's Truro 11 Mar 1879)
William Alfred Dec 1881 Islington
Mary Jane Sep 1884 Bermondsey
Bessie Georgiana Mar 1886 Bermondsey
Frances Rosina Sep 1888 Bermondsey
Joseph Reginald Mar 1890 Bermondsey
Hetty Dec 1891 Bermondsey
Richard Mar 1894 Bermondsey
James Adolphus Dec 1899 Bermondsey
-
Thankyou so much to Britgirl and Perrow!
What details I have are as follows:
in 1881 Census RG11/2312 - Mary Jane is shown as living at
51 Kenwyn Street, Truro with her children Richard, Joseph and Ellen
The Next I have on Mary Jane is her Death in 1890 Truro 5c 85 Sept
From what I know is Joseph married Ellen Palmer March 1883 sc239 at Truro
and she died Sept 1895 Truro sc81 - (this i believe is correct)
Richard was shown in 1901 living in 33 Fairmantle Street Truro
and was shown as a Mason with his wife Maria 39 Plymouth
Beatrice 11 Truro
Amy 4 Truro
I have nothing after 1901
-
Also I believe that William the Father drowned in a accident in Falmouth
how true this is I do not know -
-
I don't know why I know this, but James went to live with his grandparents in St Austell. He was with them in 1871 aged 5, but why he was sent away I do not know. He lived with them until they died I think.
-
Hi everyone ...thought I would join in ;D
this looks like joseph in 1901
1901
Mile end old town, London
11 cottage court
Joseph Ivey head mar 40 brush maker b Cornwall NK...this was his occupation in 1881
Louisa wife 28 b Essex, Plaidstow
Joseph son 7 b london Bedmondsey
Louisa dau 4 b Ditto
Alice dau 1 b ditto
deb
added
Joseph Ivey = Louisa Posnett
1893 St Saviour Southwark
question ...If Ellen his first wife only died in 1895 in Truro how could he marry in 1893 in London?
-
re; Richard and Maria Ivey
in 1911 it looks like these are the people with Maria Ivey, 48 b 1863
Truro
IVEY:
Richard 47, b 1864
Amy 14, b 1897
Clara 10, b 1901
William 6, b 1905
No sign of Beatrice
deb :)
-
re Joseph and Louisa Ivey
this is a possible family in 1911
1911
Living in West ham , Essex
IVEY
Joseph, 50, b 1861
Louisa , 38 b 1873
Joseph 17 b 1894
Louisa 15 b 1896
Alice 11, b 1900
Ellen 8 b 1903
Henry William 5 b 1906
Lily Augusta 3 b 1908
Kathleen 2 b 1909
deb
-
Thankyou so much to Britgirl and Perrow!
What details I have are as follows:
in 1881 Census RG11/2312 - Mary Jane is shown as living at
51 Kenwyn Street, Truro with her children Richard, Joseph and Ellen
The Next I have on Mary Jane is her Death in 1890 Truro 5c 85 Sept
From what I know is Joseph married Ellen Palmer March 1883 sc239 at Truro
and she died Sept 1895 Truro sc81 - (this i believe is correct)
Hi Jill
I forgot to say Welcome to Rootschat :-[ I hope you have a great time here!
re; death of Ellen above
I cannot find it anywhere.
Joseph is still proving a little elusive in the 1891 census ...I even checked Wales ...he not there either. :-\
Ellen Ivey, sister of Joseph and Richard is in Islington London in the 1891 census. She is 23, single cook/domestic servant b Truro working in the home of Johann Siebel a german teacher, from Prussia.
deb
-
Hi again
Just a thought ...
George Slack/Smith was a coach builder turned hawker , My Bessie Palmer married William Penfold , a hawker, Joseph Ivey (b 1861) is a brushmaker and now I have found James Ivey (b 1866, who lived with his grandparents) in 18911 in St Austell married to Emily and he is a licensed hawker!!!
:o :o
deb
-
Have been searching for the Ivey family in 1871 for ages ....
found them transcribed as TREY :-\
1871
Farmantle street
Kenwyn
Mary Jane IVEY head wid? 43 formerly dressmaker b Truro
Joseph son 10 scholar b ditto
Richard son 7 ditto
Ellen dau 4 ditto
-
I wonder if this is william Ivey snr's Admiralty Docs?
From National Archives;
Admiralty: Royal Navy, Royal Marines, Coastguard and related services: Officers'...Original page number: 410 William IVEY; Rating; Born: [Not Given]; Age on entry: [Not Given]; Dates served: 1 April 1836-16 April 1844; Date and Type of Application: Admiralty 7 November 1844 .
Date range: 1844 - 1845.
also William Ivey snr had to have died between 1861-1871
this is a possible death;
William Ivey b abt 1828 died Mar q 1871 Truro
vol 5c p106
deb
-
re Joseph and Louisa Ivey
this is a possible family in 1911
1911
Living in West ham , Essex
IVEY
Joseph, 50, b 1861
Louisa , 38 b 1873
Joseph 17 b 1894
Louisa 15 b 1896
Alice 11, b 1900
Ellen 8 b 1903
Henry William 5 b 1906
Lily Augusta 3 b 1908
Kathleen 2 b 1909
deb
To that I'll add Rose Caroline born & died Dec 1903 Mile End and
Rose A born Mar 1912 W. Ham
I looked all around for the birth of Richard Ivey, and then found I'd made a note that he and Peter Charles seem to be one and the same! ::) No idea why they called him Richard though!
-
Hi cous :)
have been looking for Peter Charles to no avail ... and yes ...so Peter=Richard ...very strange
-
re; Richard and Maria Ivey
in 1911 it looks like these are the people with Maria Ivey, 48 b 1863
Truro
IVEY:
Richard 47, b 1864
Amy 14, b 1897
Clara 10, b 1901
William 6, b 1905
No sign of Beatrice
deb
Also in the 1891 census Beatrice is down as Beatrice Edwards a Boarder not their daughter, but by 1901 she is their daughter, so maybe they took her in as a baby?
Or maybe not!
Just found a Beatrice Mary Ivey Truro Sep 1889, and looking closely at the image it looks more like she was 15 months old, not 5 months as it says on the transcription.
-
Julia ...edwards ...why Edwards?
I have the Penfolds in 1911 ... would you like a copy? (Bessie Palmer = William Penfold)
deb :)
-
I will have a look at the 1891 ...for Beatrice ...do you have the ref?
PS could not find a death for her :-\
-
She's at RG12; Piece: 1830; Folio 40; Page 12, with Richard & Maria.
Interestingly, while looking for the marriages of their children I found the marriage of a Beatrice E (not M!) in Dec 1910, Truro, which is why she wasn't with the family in the 1911 census.
It's ok Deb, thanks. I had a look for them and didn't find anything unexpected so didn't look at the image! I only had 120 credits so had to prioritise!
-
Britgirl/Julia
I am wondering if Richard and Peter are one and the same
we have these two birth reg
Peter Charles Ivey
Jun 1864 - Truro, Cornwall
Richard Ivey
Birth: Jun 1861 - Truro, Cornwall
they can't be the same person
deb
-
It looks like that Richard died in 1862, but of course it might not be him.
As Joseph was born in 1861 then that Richard couldn't have been of the same family anyway!!
In the censuses Peter/Richard consistantly gives a 1863/4 birthdate.
-
The Joseph Shown in 1901 and 1911 is My G G Grandfather
but Iam still at a lose end with Ellen - unless I have the wrong Joseph in this case
-
Deb
I think that is the correct entry for William Ivey Senior - Iam trying to find out where he served, Something is telling me Plymouth, as there was always the story of the Spanish in Cornwall, and how they were seen from the Sound, Will keep digging and as I find new things will keep you up to date!
-
I know the Armada was in 1538ish - however HMS Beagle was a Plymouth ship which took Darwin on his travels - so that could be interesting
same dates as well 1836-1844
-
Deb
I cant remeber where I found the details of
Ellen Palmer but what I have is as Follows
Ellen Palmer Marr March 1893 SC239 - Truro
Died Sept 1895 Truro SC81
I Assumed it was in Childbirth, - I think we need to find Joseph between 1881 and 1901 that will work out where he was at the time of her death
if in fact that is the correct Joeseph with Ellen.
My Joseph is Def the one who married Louisa
-
DEB,WITH ALL THIS INFO YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO WRITE A FEW BEST SELLERS.
SYLVIA
-
Hi .
I am reaearching the Ivey family history. My husbands great grandad was James Adolphus Ivey. I have gone back to find on his birth records his mother was Hannah Rose. According to the 1901 census she was a wife but I don't know who to. But other people in the same house were Annie Ivey (nee Hocking) and she is put down as a wife but don't know who to. Also James siblings who are also registered as being Hannah's children. They are Catherine, Mary-jane, Bessie, Rose, Joseph, Hetty and Richard. I am now stuck . I do Know that James father was William Ivey who was a Merchant Mariner. If anyone knows any more and I can see a lot of people have some more information but I don't know whether it applies to my family tree. James was in the cavalry and the Merchant Navy and he married Gladys Florence Fleming so any info on that too would be great!! thanks.
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Hi all, for those researching IVEY. William Ivey (mariner) parents Joseph and Sarah - Married Mary Jane Carnarton. One of their children James Ivey married Emily Frances Stanaway, who's parents were James Stanaway and Elizabeth Ivey. Elizabeth and William Ivey were brother and sister. If anyone is interested there was a Stanaway and Ivey marriage in 1850, and a Stanaway and Ivey marriage again in 1885. There was a period when the name Became Ivey - Stanaway, and then a switch to Stanaway - Ivey which exists to this day with quite a few still around.
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I don't think this is part of my family, but i will dig deeper. James Adolphus Ivey, who was my husbands grandfather( married Gladys Florence Fleming), was a master mariner, his father william( married hannah or annie Hocking or both ?) was a master mariner and his father william(born 1831 married mary j ? )was also a Master Mariner.
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The last william you mention is the william referred to above whose parents were joseph and sarah, married mary jane carnarton, so you do have the same family line.
-
thanks for that. i'll look into it!
-
In my database I have that William Ivey (1850) first married Eliza Solomon in 1870, and had a daughter Elizabeth Ellen the same year. Eliza died in 1872.
William then married Anne Hocking in 1875 and had 9 children as far as I know;
Catherine Annie (1879)
William Alfred (1881)
Mary Jane (1884)
Bessie Georgiana (1886)
Frances Rosina (1888)
Joseph Reginald (1890)
Hetty (1891)
Richard (1894)
James Adolphus (1899)
I don't know if there were any more born after 1901. They moved to London between the births of the eldest 2 children.
Hope that helps a bit.
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so can someone tell me why on the birth records and census records the mother of those 9 children was put down as Hannah Rose who i believe to be Hannah Hocking?
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Could be any number of reasons!!
I've had lots of Ann/Annie/Anna's who have become Hannahs, and many more who have adopted a middle name later in life too!
Interesting there is a daughter with Rosina as her middle name. Very similar.
Middle names became more common in the Victorian era.
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HI BRIT GIRL
ON THE 1901 CENSUS THERE IS A HANNAH ROSE ON THE PREVIOUS PAGE BUT IN THE SAME HOUSE AND IS LISTED AS WIFE BUT ON THE PAGE WHERE JAMES IS THERE IS ANNIE IVEY WHO IS A WIFE ALSO BUT NO MAN LISTED. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT PEOPLE SO JUST WONDERING IF HANNAH ROSE WAS RELATED TO ANNIE AND ANNIE TOOK OVER THE ROLE OF MOTHER TO THE KIDS FOR HANNAH. BECAUSE ON JAMES BIRTH RECORDS IT IS HANNAH ROSE . SO I AM A BIT CONFUSED ON THAT SCORE.
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Actually Hannah Rose was living at number 254 while the Ivey's are living at 266, and they are of different schedule numbers which indicates different households.
I think William must have been at sea, as Annie is there as wife (not widow) and he reappears in the 1911.
Quite likely Mrs Rose's husband was also at sea.
But it is interesting that James Adolphus has Hannah Rose named as his mother on his birth cert! He is a few years younger than the next child too.
I don't know what to make of that!! ???
What does it say Hannah Rose's maiden name was on his birth cert? Could you trace her in earlier censuses?
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Hi , no i cannot find her in any other census's but on the 1901 census on ancestry.com, before you look at the actual form it says James mother , and all the other children were Hannah Rose's and she is listed as in the same household, so i am really stumped. I just presumed she was Hannah Hocking and rose was maybe her middle name.
aaagggh it's driving me mad. I wil have to order the actual birth certificate. and dig deeper somehow
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In that little box of household members on Ancestry Hannah does come up first but if you click on her name it says she is from schedule 153.
The next name is Annie Ivey (William's wife) but the schedule is 154, ie a new household.
On the actual image Hannah is on her own, on the previous page, living next door (164 Lynton Rd) at the same address as a Mr & Mrs Norman and the Cowderoy family. She has one room, the Norman's have 3 rooms and the Cowderoy's occupy 4 rooms.
Annie and all her children are at the top of the next page and (schedule 154) living at 166 Lynton Rd.
I think you are reading too much into the fact she is in that little box of family members!
On the image it shows Annie's widowed mother, Catherine Hocking (written as mother in law) is living with them, but she doesn't appear in the little box!
I think Hannah Rose being in that box is just a mistake on Ancestry's part.
But certainly, the only way to be sure is to get James' birth certificate.
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I will and I probably am, Thank you It's all very intruiging.
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Paul and Tye - do you have any more info on Joseph and Sarah (Williams Parents) ie Sarahs maiden name and where they came from?
just wondering if Joseph was in the Navy too?
seems like it runs in the Family ;)
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Hi All, Reference Joseph and Sarah, my info is based on FreeCen entries and my conclusions are as follows;- Joseph Ivey b.1800 St Austell Tin Miner/Labourer d. before 1881 - Sarah ? b.1800 Redruth, died after 1881. Hopefully someone can confirm this and perhaps add to it. Regards Paul Tye
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Fiona1234
There is a exhibition in Falmouth regarding the Titanic sinking in 1912
app members of the Hocking Family survived, just wondering if any of those are from your clan?
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Thanks for that information. I am gobsmacked that some anscestors of my husbands could have been passengers on the Titanic. I have looked on the internet for information and have found lots about the Hockings on there so thanks. I will now dig deep and discover some links and will let you know.
fi
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The Exhibition is at the Maritime Muesum in Falmouth, also in Truro Cathedral
there is a memorial stone to those who died on the Titanic
lots of Cornish people were on board and as its a Sea fairing place - families were either into Maritime or Mining.
I live not far from Truro so if you need any scouting let me know
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do you have the link for passengers names on the titanic? i think i missed it.
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http://www.encyclopedia-titanica.org/titanic_passenger_list/
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Thanks Fiona
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Hi Deb
I am very interested in your family tree, my maternal grandmother was Laura Irene Penfold. Her parents were William Penfold b. 1873 and Bessie Palmer b. 1877 form Kenwyn Cornwall. Bessie's parents were John and Mary Palmer. I have only recently started tracing my family history and so far this is all I know for this side of the family. It certainly looks like we have the same ancestors! Johanna
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Hi Johanna
Nice to meet you. :D I have just spoken to my mum and she used to call your grandmother Aunty Rene (pronounced Reen-nie) ;D Is your mum Margaret? If so, my mum, Maureen, says to say "Hi Cousin" .
Hi to everyone else ...for some reason I did not get your replies on my email :-\ ... I need to catch up
deb :D
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Hi Johanna, from a slightly more distant cousin! I'm descended from Bessie Palmer's sister Mary!
So do either of you know anything about a possible second family for Bessie & Mary's father John Palmer? ::)
It's just that we know his wife Mary (Smith/Slack) appears to have left him by the 1901 census, and there is no sign of a death for her as far as we can tell. John was living with his son John (Jack) in 1901.
But in the 1911 Jack was living with his sister Mary's family and John Sr it appears is living with an Alice PHILP and their 3 children in Charles St, Truro, a long time Palmer location.
She is recorded as being his housekeeper (29), but although the writing is very bad (looks like John was semi-literate) the children were Molam (William?) aged 7, Freadey (Freddy?) aged 6, Eva, 4 and Joseph 1, and are all recorded as his son with the surname Palmer.
FreeBMD lists no marriage or suitable children under Palmer, but for PHILP it shows
William John P (for Palmer perhaps?) Dec 1903
Frederick Dec 1904
Eva Rosalia P Sep 1906
Joseph James P Mar 1910
An Ada Kathleen P Philp (Sep 1907) and a Daisy Palmer Philp (Dec 1908) both died just before the census in the March Qtr 1911 and could be theirs too.
I haven't had a chance to look at the baptisms to see if they give any more clues, but I'd say it's looking like a stong possibility he took up with someone else after his wife went!
What do you think? :D
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Fiona
On 20th October was the 90th anniversary of the Levant Mine disaster
and on the local West Country news they were talking about one chap William J Hocking - there are family members still in Penzance sorry I wasnt able to catch the names - but if this is Your Hocking then you will be able to find information by checking on google for the Levant Mine Disaster
Hope this helps
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this may be of help
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nationonfilm/topics/tin-mining/background_conditions.shtml
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Hi everyone
Hi Cousin Britgirl ;D
I didn't know about the 2nd family for John Palmer. :-\ :o It seems that he would then be having 'new' children at the same time Bessie Palmer Penfold was having her children. I wonder if this would account for the bad vibes on my side of the family. :-X
In 1901 John and John/Jack(jnr) were living next door to William and Bessie Penfold in Calenick St, Kenwyn.
There is an Alice Philp, 20, servant, b Truro, living in St Clement in 1901. Can't see her in 1891.
No-one in my family has ever mentioned a second family, surely they would haver known about them! I have the 1911 census of William and Bessie Penfold .... will find it and see what street they are living in.
BBS
deb
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Hi
Okay ..By 1911 William and Bessie Penfold are living at No. 1 Mill Place, Truro.
I have also just spoken to my mother and it seems that there is a great possibility that John Palmer had a second family. She is going to ask her Penfold cousin for more info.
Britgirl ...thanks for finding all of this .... it seems you may have solved some unanswered questions that have laid hidden in our family!
deb :D
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Hi Deb,
I spoke to my mum, she remembers meeting your mum when she was about 15. She said she is hoping to visit Cornwall in the near future and look up some of her relatives. I think she has a phone number for your mum too and is thinking of giving her a bell, in the mean time tell her she says hi.
Hello to you too Britgirl, I'm still trying to wade though all the info all of you have been working on over the past few years. It's fasinating, but rather confusing at times. It's very exciting to speak to you and Deb. The Internet is really amazing. Jo
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Shame my Grandad isn't still alive. Jack Palmer (who was living with his family in 1911) was his favourite uncle, so he would have known for sure!
Wish I knew what happened to John's wife Mary. But trying to find a Mary Palmer isn't going to be easy!! Even if she couldn't marry again, she could be living with someone under a married name in 1911! ::)
And I've had the hardest time finding Bessie, Mary & Jack's sister Annie after 1901 when she was living as a servant in Kenwyn. She is transcribed as Anna Poliner on Ancestry, but the image is clear it's her ::)
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Hi Britgirl :)
I have the 1911 image of John snr and 'family' ...it seems to me that someone else filled out the census as his signature does not correspond. Also he seems to have added several details ..eg: His and Alice's POB and her occupation within the household. John still states that he is Married ...so where is Mary? arrghhhhhhh ::)
My mother has met several "Palmers", not knowing that they were from the 2nd marriage, although it had been alluded to that they were her cousins. It is all falling into place for her. My Nan was told by her mum, Bessie Palmer Penfold NOT to ever talk to certain Palmer children. They had to have been from the 2nd "wife".
will search for Mary some more.
Hi Jo ... great to see you back!I'm sure my mum would love to see your mum again. How fun is this? :D :D
deb :)
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Hi again
I think this Mary palmer has been mentioned before.
Her age is off ::)
1901
Devon
Tavistock
Tamerton Foliot
Plympton, St Mary
Maristow Barton
Thomas Sturtridge and family ..Farmer
MARY PALMER Married 38, dom servant b St Mary's Truro
I can't see a Mary Palmer b 1863, Truro in 1891 census.
I wonder if this could be Mary remarrying;
Mary Palmer to either William Henry Bezzell or Charles William Johnson
Mar q 1910 Plympton St Mary
deb
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Hi Britgirl
Going on the assumption that our Mary Palmer is in Devon, Tavistock area in 1901 and stayed in Devon, I wonder if Annie followed her and got married there?
Marriage;
Tavistock, Devon
Annie Palmer to either
Richard Harry W Marks or Sidney George Bolt
Dec q 1909
5b 779
What do you think?
deb
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That is very interesting Deb! And makes a lot of sense.
I was never aware of any ill feeling in my branch of the family. Uncle Jack Palmer (& his family) was liked amongst my mum and her cousins, and his sister Mary (my Gt Gran) was a darling from all accounts. There was never mention of any other Palmers though! I must ask my mum's cousin to talk to Auntie Nic. She married Jack Palmer's son. so might know something!
The problem I have with Mary Palmer remarrying, is that her and John probably wern't divorced and therefore not free to marry anyone else. Divorces were difficult and expensive back then, so usually the couple just split then lived with another partner, without the benefit of the clergy.
So John saying he is married is probably the truth, but not necessarily to Alice Philp! "Housekeeper" was a popular eupherism, as was lodger!
Women who split up and didn't find anyone else often said they were widowed.
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Hi
I think the bad vibes stemmed from Bessie .... she disliked her dad, maybe because of his dalliance with Alice. She never had any problem with your gran and Uncle Jack.
My Nan remembers being with her dying mother, Bessie and that her Granddad Palmer stood at the end of the street and did not attend Bessie's funeral. My Nan remembers her granddad Palmer (john snr.), his funeral procession ...supposedly he had a big black hearse pulled by black horses addorned with "feather head dresses'...she remembers standing watching it and shouting "may you rot in hell' and some woman slapping her saying : "be quiet, that's your grandfather' .... something must have happened for Bessie to pass these feelings onto her children! I am glad that your Mary and Jack did not have these feelings.
William Penfold and Bessie died within months of each other ... 1926
deb
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another thought
Perhaps it was possible for Mary Palmer to remarry in Devon as she was not known there. I have come across many marriages lately even though the person was still married to the 1st spouse.
John may not have been able to marry as he stayed in Truro.
deb
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Could be.
I had a look on 1911 as best I could for an Annie or Mary married to either of those men, but didn't come up with any matches. I even tried the other women on the marriage page to see if that could rule out one, but again, nothing I could see for sure.
If I ever subscribe to the 1911 I'll look for sure.
I really need to get myself to the genealogy library and look up the Truro baptisms for those Philp/Palmer kids to see for sure.
Looking at all the Philp babies born to a Philp mother on FreeBMD (with the mysterious P initial) he could have had up to 14 children with her, well into his 70s :o, though about half of them seem to have died before the age of 5.
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When did John Sr die? Obviously after 1926!
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I have no clue when John snr died. But if my Nan was born in 1914 and she did what she said she did as a child , then I would say he had to have died circa 1930's or earlier.
I think the fact that Bessie knew that her dad was carrying on with this younger woman, made her really angry. Especially since maybe everyone in Truro knew what was happening! I am even thinking that maybe Bessie, Mary or Annie may have introduced her into the family if she was a friend of theirs as Alice was of the same age. I see that Alice is born St Clements ...why can't I find her in 1891 . There are a couple of PHILP families in St Clement in 1891 ...no Alice but there is an Olivia Alice.
I will ask my cousin (Middleton side) in Canada to have a look at 1911 for us.
Maybe ordering the certs could put this to rest ...but lets investigate further before we do this.
deb
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Hi Deb
was wondering if there was every any conclusion to the
things that I came across Marriage to Ellen Palmer in March 1883 in Truro
to Joseph Ivey (sc239)
According to what I can find Ellen died in Truro in Sept 1895 (sc81)
that would explain why Joseph went to London
the rest stayed in Cornwall
Obviously it may not be Your Ellen - but it would be good to find out
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Also has anyone got any pictures of Joseph Ivey before 1910?especially the wedding picture between him and Ellen -
or any of the Carnartons
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Truromian,
In my database I have Ellen Palmer (1851), who was a sister of our John Palmer, moving to Lancashire and marrying William Barnes in 1874. Their younger sister Susan also married in Lancashire three years later. I don't have any other Ellen Palmers of the right age, so it looks like she wasn't of our line.
The only Joseph Ivey I have was born in 1861 the son of William Ivey & Mary Jane Carnarton. I have hism as marrying Louisa Posnett in 1894 in Southwark, London. They had 9 children gradually moving eastwards through Mile End to West Ham, by 1908.
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Do you know for sure your Joseph married Ellen Palmer, or was even married previously?
Only I've found Joseph in 1881 living with his mother, in 1891 single (born on the high seas??) a lodger in Whitechapel, and in 1901 married to Louisa. He was a brush maker in all 3.
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Britgirl this is what iam trying to find out
the Joseph Ivey you talk of is my GG grandfather
but i have missing from Cornwall since 1881 then showing up in London 1901
so the lost years are what iam trying to trace - and in that is this wedding to Ellen Palmer, as i say unless in my searches i was mistaken
this is what iam trying to find out
What happened to Joseph Ivey between 1881 in Cornwall and 1901 when he turned up in London
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Well, although his age is out by 5 years I believe your Joseph was loging at the Luther E Clarke Victoria Home, Whitechapel, London in 1891.
Joseph Ivey, lodger, single, 35, brushmaker, employed, birthplace; On the High Seas.
In 1881 his birthdate is placed at 1859, so still out a bit, and there aren't any other Joseph Ivey's who were brushmakers, except this one!
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Thankyou so much for that
has solved a big gap in Joseph's History, Need to look into the high seas birth - as all i have is born in Cornwall.
although there is a lot of Maritime History on the Ivey Side
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Hi all :)
Truromian ... I have checked the 1891 and cannot see a Joseph and Ellen Ivey or even a married Ellen Ivey by herself.
I have found his marriage to Louisa Posnett on LMA
22 may 1893
Joseph states he is 29, BATCHELOR, brushmaker, father= William Ivey, deceased.
Louisa is 20, spinster, father= James Posnett, brushmaker
both are residing St George The Martyr at time of marriage.
He signs with his mark, Louisa signs her name
witnesses;
James Posnett (he signs)
Henrietta Poole (her mark)
I have details of them in 1911 if you would like them.
Deb :)
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Hi Britgirl
I have the Annie Palmer who married in Tavistock and I don't think she is ours.
Marriage;
Tavistock, Devon
Annie Palmer to either
Richard Harry W Marks or Sidney George Bolt
Dec q 1909
In 1911 she is with Sidney Bolt and dau Lily, living in St Germans, Cornwall
Annie = age 24 b Tavistock :-\
will keep looking
deb
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Deb
That is fantastic thankyou for that - and it opens up
the Posnett side a little bit more for me
the 1911 stuff you have would be fantastic as well if you have it to hand
especially the Posnett side
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Good find Deb! I didn't even think to try the LMA!! ::)
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new poster with links to the Emidy family looking for help here
http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=556221.new
;)
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Hi everyone,
can anyone tell me anything about mary jane ivey (carnarton) and the birth of her son Joseph, 'on the high seas'.
What was she doing at sea? any idea of where exactly or what vessel? does the birth cert give any more info. if anyone has a copy?
Any info. gratefully received
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Hi, just in case anyone is interested, I have just read a book called 'Proof Of Existence' by Brenda Davies. It refers to Mary Jane Ivey which I'm sure is Mary Jane Carnarton before she married. The book is a lovey read for anyone related to the Ivey family. It is full of interesting info. about living in cornwall in the late 1800's. full of cornish history.http://www.rootschat.com/forum/Smileys/classic/smiley.gif
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Thanks for that recommendation Perrow! I read the first few pages on the Amazon preview, and already I'm hooked! :)
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Thanks Perrow.
Hi Britgirl :) I have also just read the first two chapters ... fascinating!! I am definitely going to buy the book and order one for my mum.
deb
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Hi Cousin Deb,
Mine should be arriving any day now! Can't wait!! :D
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Hi Cousin Julia, :D
I have just spent many hours rereading this thread! It was and still is quite fascinating. I wish some of the other rootschatters would come back as they are direct descendants of William Ivey = Mary Jane Carnarton. If we are excited about the book I'm sure they would be ecstatic!!!
I wonder if there are newspaper articles re: the Carnartons. I know I had fun finding items about 'Cockney George Slack/Smith'.
deb
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just reawakening this thread to keep me posted.i am looking for a connection for charlotte palmer lancashire who married john penfold.the connection i want is with the broomsquire gypsies of the quantock hills who were gypsies/
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May I go back to square one and ask what is probably a dumb question? but I haven't been able to find the answer on reading the thread.
(Also a tip for reading a long thread like this: click "Print" up at the top and the entire thread will be visible which is so much easier for searching for info.)
Did anybody ever figure out who Amelia Carnarton was? ;)
I also couldn't see whether the death cert for the Amelia Carnarton who died in 1842 was got.
Much more info is now available; her burial is here
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=burials&id=1493285
and she was 15 years old at death (residence Charles Street, Kenwyn), so she was not the Amelia aged 24 in 1841.
So is the 1842 death of 15-yr-old Amelia likely the Amelia baptised in 1824, with some age rounding? (or possible misreading of the microfiche if it said 18 maybe)
If no record of your Amelia's birth (baptism) was ever found, I also wondered about Amelia Bryant baptised October 1816 in Kenwyn, mother Mary Ann, no father named:
http://www.cornwall-opc-database.org/search-database/more-info/?t=baptisms&id=3223810
There is no obvious marriage or burial/death for her in Cornwall, or evidence of her by that name in censuses. (An unmarried Amelia Bryant from Cornwall in censuses in Gloucestershire with father James in 1841, who died in 1893, is not her.)
She could well have been a daughter of Charles Carnarton before his marriage to Mary Duff.
(I don't see any Mary Bryant marriage that would offer a Carnarton stepfather.)
The Charles who married Mary Duff was baptised 1800 in Helston.
A Mary Bryant was buried 1817 aged 16 in Falmouth ...
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Hi JaneyCanuk,
You know, I really can't remember if we figured out Amelia Carnarton or not now!
I would say the age of the Amelia Carnarton who died in 1842 in Charles St Truro was indeed 15, according to the register image at Family Search. The 5 is a bit of an open squiggle which could possibly be misread as 19, but looking at other entries made by the same clergyman I'd say she was 15. Either way I'm pretty certain that she was the daughter of Charles and Mary Duff which would rule out them as being the parents of the illegitimate Amelia as well.
The possibility of her being Amelia Bryant isn't something I have looked into, but it's certainly worth investigating! :)
The reason I popped in today though, was to make another update concerning this comment from Valda:
Title: Re: Cornish Mystery
Post by: Valda on Saturday 08 April 06 07:56 BST (UK)
I can see absolutely nothing for Charitys or Christians on the Cornwall FHS marriage index so I'm concluding we have all of them now that married and survived to adulthood.
I have recently been contacted by a descendant of Christian Carnarton (1807) (aka Catherine/Kitty) who requested I updated you with what became of her.
She married Thomas Henry Heard on 14th May 1826 in Kenwyn Parish and then they moved around a lot between Cornwall, Berkshire & London before emigrating to Australia in 1857. They had 10 children and she died on 20th Sept 1885 in Collingwood, Victoria.
Maybe it will help any Heard descendants out there who are also wondering what became of Thomas Henry, or who have reached a stumbling block in connecting Kitty/Catherine with Christian!
Charity Carnarton however was buried in Helston on 10 February 1803 aged 5, the daughter of Charles Carnarton.
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I hope people don't mind me resurrecting this very old thread but time and genealogy moves on, and in the 13 (yes 13!!) years since this thread started research methods have taken quite an unforeseen turn.
Having tested my DNA with Ancestry I have since matched with several Carnarton descendants, and this week with someone who is a descendant of Amelia Carnarton's half brother, William Dennis, which I think conclusively proves that all the researchers who worked on this thread were absolutely spot on the mark!
Thank you!!
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Fantastic news!
I can't believe this thread is 13 years old .... :D
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Amazing news after so long !
ROOTSCHAT FOR EVER !!!
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Lydart ... it's so great!!!!
Britgirl and I have connected through DNA tests. Plus I have had connections on DNA matches to the Palmers and a whole LOT of Penfolds ... my Gypsy heritage.
How many years ago did we find your Peter Peters (I think) who died tragically from being run over by a carriage or pony trap?
RC members are amazing!
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Not one of mine .... I don't have any Peters ....
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:) :)
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Hi
I'm related on the buzza side
Two brothers ( Buzza)
Married two emidy sisters granddaughter of Joseph Antonio Emidy
On family search someone has done a book of sorts with loads of information on the emidy family
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May I go back to square one and ask what is probably a dumb question? but I haven't been able to find the answer on reading the thread.
Did anybody ever figure out who Amelia Carnarton was? ;)
Yes, we did. She was an illegitimate daughter of Mary CARNARTON 1791-1867 (later Mrs Richard DENNIS). Mary was daughter of Charles CARNARTON and Margaret/Margery PERROW.
Cheers
Peter
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What an amazing thread
Interesting topic
& Wonderful results
So glad that the DNA confirmed the results
Did it confirm the PALMER children's parentage ?
It would be good to have a summary of Amelia s life to exclude the other Amelia
I'm researching for a friend who s father was from Truro Cornwall
Have you seen that Ancestry ethnicity now shows cornwall as a specific region
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SUMMARY of the CARNARTON section of this saga (note, there were various spellings for the surname):
Amelia CARNARTON
dau of Mary CARNARTON 1791-1867 and unknown
b ca 1816 Falmouth
d 13 Jun 1894 Charles Street, Truro
m 13 Jan 1842 Registry Office, Truro to
George SLACK alias SMITH ca 1803-1872
7 children
Amelia's mother m 11 Apr 1819 Kenwyn to Richard DENNIS ca 1798-1869 and had 4 more children.
-----
Amelia CARNARTON
dau of Charles CARNARTON 1800-1858 m 1823 Mary DUFF ca 1801-1858
bt 3 Oct 1824 Kenwyn
bur 1 Jun 1842 Kenwyn
never married
-----
Mary CARNARTON 1791-1867 and Charles CARNARTON 1800-1858 were children of
Charles CARNARTON 1768 (d bef 1837) m 1791 Margaret "Margery" PERROW ca 1764-1855
Cheers
Peter
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Did it confirm the PALMER children's parentage ?
Yes, it did. I am the 2x Gt Grand daughter of Mary Smith/Slack (Amelia Carnarton & George Slack/Smith's youngest child) who married John Palmer.
I have many Carnarton, & Palmer DNA matches. :)
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Well done everyone, this is not only the largest thread on this entire site (I think) but it has also lasted for 18 years!