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Family History Documents and Artefacts => Graveyards and Gravestones => Topic started by: GRACELAND on Tuesday 12 October 04 15:29 BST (UK)
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When on my week long party ,i did take a break and looked at a few graves ;)
Keep an eye on Gravestones/tombstones !
These below though were in need of some loving care ! :'(
This is the main ch in Mablethorpe uk !!
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:'(
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It's such a shame! , but at least you can read the headstones, which is more than can be said for the churchyard i visited earlier this week.
Take a look at St Marks church here GRACELAND http://revjim.is-a-geek.com/fittysroots
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I think government and/or lottery money should be spent on restoring and maintaining our graveyards and public cemeteries. In my opinion they are just as important as listed buildings, and once they're gone, they're gone for ever.
Lottery money should be diverted from trendy L,G & BS arty type follies and spent on ensuring that our most at risk headstones and tombs are protected against further deterioration and vandalism.
Talking of vandalism. What do you think of those so called 'animal rights' activists who stole that old womans remains? How sick and depraved can people get?
Regards,
Kris. :'(
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AND,,
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Fitty you sure that was a cem ??? i thought it looks more like a Jungle !!!!
But even in this mess there is someone still careing !
And the wildlife like it !!!
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Also look at this , :o what do you think of gravestones used for paths ???
This is st Helenas Willoughby ne Skegness ?
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I hate when the use gravestones for paths!! It makes my feet itch when I walk on them!
I agree they should look after graveyards better I was trying to find my Great Grandparents but the graveyard is so overgrown most of the headstones look like lumps in the grass
Mind you some of my ancestors were buried in St Georges, Wolverhampton and now the church is a Sainsbury's and the graveyard is the car park so I have really lucked out there!
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Chris1066 made a valid point to me in an email he sent me. I hope he does'nt mind me posting this here.
Have just looked at the church and yard and yes, it is absolutely disgusting that graveyards are allowed to get into this condition. - only consolation is that the dense undergrowth are stopping the stones from being weathered to much.
Once i had tore away the undergrowth the stones were like new, The inscriptions were so clear, they could have been done last week. So there is that i suppose.
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well looks like i've been told off too many pic :'( oh well
??? ??? ???
so i will take a few away sorry ???
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I thought I'd just revive this thread. It seems that several councils are now pushing over old gravestones incase they fall on people. I won't name the place I went to see but it looked a state. Even gravestones that were perfectly safe have been pushed over. And not just that - those with different tiers of stone have had the top chopped off - like those in Graceland's second picture. These were perfectly stable gravestones. I presume they had to use chainsaws to cut them down.
Then I find this today: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/bradford/6493223.stm
Still, at least they're actually checking which ones are safe rather than pushing all of them over.
Andrew
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Well in Norwich, they took down old gravestones and used them to line a path for the opening of a new shopping centre!
http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/content/News/story.aspx?brand=ENOnline&category=News&tBrand=enonline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED24%20Sep%202005%2012%3A25%3A08%3A897 - This story was reported in the EDP in Sept '05 before the opening of the new shopping centre in October. They did move some of them back after complaints but it is still creepy and v.disrespectful to see it now, and the comment in the article that the graveyard was closed in 1854 is rubbish as there are cremations with plaques in there from the 60's! I would not be impressed if I found an ancestor was buried there and went to visit and found his headstone had been moved opposite Wagamama's restaurant and had a coke can and and chewing gum in front of it.
Although the shopping centre itself is really nice and tasteful, unlike the path!
acceber (term time Norwich resident)
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Well in Norwich, they took down old gravestones and used them to line a path for the opening of a new shopping centre!
http://www.eveningnews24.co.uk/content/News/story.aspx?brand=ENOnline&category=News&tBrand=enonline&tCategory=news&itemid=NOED24%20Sep%202005%2012%3A25%3A08%3A897 - This story was reported in the EDP in Sept '05 before the opening of the new shopping centre in October. They did move some of them back after complaints but it is still creepy and v.disrespectful to see it now, and the comment in the article that the graveyard was closed in 1854 is rubbish as there are cremations with plaques in there from the 60's! I would not be impressed if I found an ancestor was buried there and went to visit and found his headstone had been moved opposite Wagamama's restaurant and had a coke can and and chewing gum in front of it.
Although the shopping centre itself is really nice and tasteful, unlike the path!
acceber (term time Norwich resident)
That's a disgrace - I for one would deliberately avoid walking on a gravestone path. It's just simply not right at all.
Andrew
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On my last visit home I was appalled at what I saw in the cemetery of my Parish Chuch. Old gravestones and surrounds had literally been bulldozed into one big pile. I was also told of several instances where the council "checkers" were responsible for deliberately loosening ols stones. There was a hefty coiuncil charge to make them "safe." My father's cousin actually watched one worker rocking her father's stone until it loosened. She reported it to the council but never heard anything from them.
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I went to visit my parents' grave on Mothering Sunday, to take flowers, only to find a wooden stake rammed up behind the stone with a large strap around both stone and stake and a hazard warning sign on it!
A few months ago the stone was very slightly tipping forwards, but it was the flagstone on which it was placed that was sinking into the earth - the upright and plinth were perfectly square. We were going to get an estimate to have the flagstone levelled up but the council have come along and actually moved the gravestone askew on the flagstone to "prove" it is faulty!
To add insult to injury we're now not allowed to have the stone put right unless we go to a "council-approved" stonemason!
As the stonemason cannot guarantee that the remedial works will not damage the stone, we may be forced to purchase a completely new one. "The problem is, dear, it's such an old stone........" :o it was only erected in 1973!
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Funny that, Stoney. The guy Dad's cousin watched turned out to be the "council approved" stonemason!
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These stories have just brought to mind an article I saw in a local newspaper earlier this week. One council in the North East seem to have got it right and have started work to repair and reinstate an estimated 300 memorials, in closed churchyards and are covering the cost instead of passing it on to relatives. This will include reimbursing some families who have already paid to have relations' memorials fixed. It states, plans to improve its closed churchyards policy were drawn up after new safety advice from the Public Services Ombudsman. Also states, it is helping to protect the district's heritage. Well done to this particular council!!!
justmej
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On a recent holiday to England (returned last week) I visited several graveyards to do a little searching and also for pleasure (my kids like trying to find the oldest stone). I was disgusted to see stones used for paths in many churchyards. (The shopping centre path takes the cake!) Most churchyards were well cared for, many had only a few stones in place (indicating removal for whatever reason). Very sad. I also think there should be some protection from wear and tear for stones on floors inside churches themselves - are these underfloor burials or just headstones being used as pavers?
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I'm up in Liverpool for the Military Show in a couple of weeks and intend on the way to it to visit Huyton churchyard to visit grand-parents grave. Having read this thread I'm dreading what I will find as I was last there in the 1960's.
Jean
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Late last year I found my Gt Grandparents grave, it was laid down with an notice from the local council, as the men were actually working in the cemetery I asked them what was happening. The reply was all graves that look dangerous are to be made good again, I asked if the family would be responsible for the cost and no he said, the council are funding the project, he said if 'Little Jonny or Mary' want to play in the grave yard and a stone falls on them, the parents will sue :o so we have been asked to make them all good.
While I applaud the council for the repairs I was shocked to know the real reason why, if my boys decided to 'play' in a grave yard, they wouldn't be able to sit down for a week :(
I went back on Sunday and the grave yard looks beautiful, all graves standing upright, grass neatly cut, flowers everywhere and no litter, well done Middlesbrough Council, and shame on the children who may play there.
I hope some of you find 'your' graves in such good condition.
Jane
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From August 2005:
"I was in the Fens visiting my parents last week, and on Thursday afternoon, I went to
the Baptist Chapel at Upwell as my father had told me that the the builders had moved
in and had started clearing the headstones - with a bulldozer.
It was a horrendous sight - not one of the old headstones is left standing; they are now
just a heap of rubble behind the chapel.
I took many photographs and have now put a selection up on my website:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~cawthorn/Church&Chapel/Clearance/index.html
so that family history researchers around the world with Upwell connections can see just what
has been done in the name of "progress" to their ancestors' last resting place.
The developer [ Mr. Malaki Udensi] says he is doing nothing wrong [!] but surely the headstones
should have been moved to another site? As according to Guidelines issued by the Baptist Church,
this is exactly what should have been done.
I am appalled at what this man has done - I have lost 3-4 generations worth of CAWTHORN,
RUSSELL, SCOTT & FORTH family history.
What has happened at Upwell is nothing short of desecration and utter vandalism.
I know there are many other small chapels in the Fens that face being sold for re-development;
so let what's happened at Upwell be a stark warning to the local communities and other connections
about what may happen after the sale is completed - unless they speak up first."
The chapel is now a dwelling.
Ann
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This is happening all over our country. Cemeteries are our heritage. They are beautiful, peaceful places. And should be looked after better by the authorities.
It seems these people are answerable to no one. It completely discusts me the way they can do this, and not be accountable.
Red >:(
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One of our oldest local cemeteries is in very poor condition, with most of the stones fallen. The council will not allow the stones to be corrected because they say the earth is too soft and it would be a danger.
I surpose that when this site was chosen a hundred or so years ago health and safty was not considered.
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May also be a ploy to get them removed. I know that here in Australia some of our old buildings are left to rot in the hope that no one kicks up a stink when they are finally removed and a modern structure/s built in it's place.
There are the usual moans and groans about how dangerous the old buildings are and how expensive to renovate etc etc. All rubbish. They just want the buidling removed and the land reused preferably with many tiny townhouses filled with many people who can pay many rates and taxes.
We have so few old buildings that we need to hang on to those we have.
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This is happening all over our country. Cemeteries are our heritage. They are beautiful, peaceful places. And should be looked after better by the authorities.
It seems these people are answerable to no one. It completely discusts me the way they can do this, and not be accountable.
Red >:(
Very true Red,
People should be protesting to Church authorities, local councillors and local politicians about the total destruction of cemeteries and their gravestones. At the very least all the stones should be listed and photographed in situ prior to being destroyed. Gravestones are an important of local history as well as
family history. Are stones being destroyed in both consecrated and unconsecrated areas?
Christopher
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When I went to Liverpool at the end of May I popped into Huyton graveyard and found that it was completely changed. The whole site had been landascaped with a dividing wall removed.
Of my grandparents gravestones there was no sign. It was the same for a number of other gravestones. However you could see mounds where people have been buried. The number of old graves with broken stones was heartbreaking. Makes one wonder at the mentality of people who go round vandalising.
I have been in touch with Knowsley Council and it seems that when they landscaped a couple of years ago (under their conservation area changes) it would appear that 90% of the gravestones had been vandilised and the wall had collapsed.
So it would appear that although a number of stones have been put back - some only partial but with names on them - Those that couldn't be put back, because they were too damaged, were removed as was most of the wall.
Jean
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Warning to anyone who has relatives buried in Holy Trinity Church, Heath Town, Wolverhampton as they are on about 'removing' unsafe gravestones
Thought I don't think they expected the backlash they got from people saying that if the graveyard was better kept more people would undoubtably look after family stones
I am going up Monday to see if I can find some of my relatives who are buried there
We will wait and see what happens
Willow x
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Today I visited the old graveyard of Fraserburgh.
After looking at a few of the old stones, it is fair to say that it is quickly becoming useless to us researchers.
The fronts of the stones are chipping off, stones are cracking in half and toppling. As well as that, many of the older stones from the 17th and 18th Century are almost unusable.
I'm not sure if this graveyeard has been indexed yet so much of the information may be lost if something is not down. I know that the 'Aberdeen & North East Scotland Family History Society' have indexed cemeteries in the passed. Furthermore, they have published their work (indexed, scribed and mapped) in little booklets that go on sale to the general public.
I'm thinking it may be a good idea to put a plea in to them.
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Here in the US we have many of our pioneer cemeteries in the same condition. There are now several volunteer organizations that have formed who have taken on the cause of restoring these cemeteries and their stones. They find cemeteries, contact the owners and obtain permission to work on the cemetery and the stones. The main reason here for the deplorable condition of our pioneer cemeteries is basically lack of money. There's where the volunteer efforts help so much. They collect donations and many of the volunteers use their own money to buy the supplies like the stone patch to fix broken stones, the cleaners, etc. That might be something y'all can do out there. :-) It's well worth the effort.
Shelly
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In the UK some councils knock down gravestones when they think there's a danger they'll fall. Helf and Safety gone mad of course. ???
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In the UK some councils knock down gravestones when they think there's a danger they'll fall. Helf and Safety gone mad of course. ???
This is in case all the children playing in the cem could get hurt , While there swinging on the stones ...
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back in 1949 I learnt the new word "perpetuity", when my father described that the family had paid for their parents' grave and headstone to be looked after by the council in perpetuity. I've never seen the document and never knew who had it but it should make interesting reading. However, judging by the disgraceful way many council Health & Safety Departments are treating our cemeteries I've no doubt some law or bye-law has been passed to get around the agreement.
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http://www.parliament.uk/commons/lib/research/briefings/snha-03634.pdf
The House of Commons has issued guidelines on Unsafe Headstones in Cemeteries which I found out about from a letter sent to our parish clerk from Harriet Harman. See page 7 of the above document link.
My own recent experience of a family headstone in Shrivenham, Oxfordshire was positive in that the Church Warden advertised for family to come forward regarding two unsafe headstones (one was my family) and from information given they were able to contact us. Although we had already made plans to restore the headstone it had not been unsafe when we had last seen it last autumn. However, the cold winter had cracked the remaining cement.
My contact with both the Church Warden and the County Council officer (the graveyard is a closed graveyard and maintained by the County Council) was very positive.
The problem many families have is that it is so expensive to have repairs done.
Around this area of Oxfordshire much voluntary work has been done over the past few years to tidy up churchyards and make them peaceful havens, but people will always disagree on what should be done.
Many people want ivy and lichen left alone, many want it removed and the arguments weigh evenly for each side. Ivy does dreadful damage to some types of stone, but some old headstones are literally being held together by ivy.
Some people want buried headstones left buried. In our churchyard we have unburied them to transcribe the details arguing that although uncovering them may lead to them weathering more, they cannot be transcribed unless they are uncovered and therein the argument goes around in circles.
My suggestion would be for more people to transcribe headstones in their local churchyard - if it has not already been done. We have spent 5 years slowly transcribing the headstones in different sections of our churchyard and although it is quite difficult, it is also very rewarding and a fun day for everyone.
Some people don't like children playing in churchyards. My local church has a path straight through the middle on the way to the childrens playground. I like to think that the sound of childrens laughter makes a churchyard more uplifting.
Whatever our different thoughts it is important that churchyards are maintained and where necessary, restored but we all need to do our bit.
Cello
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Some people don't like children playing in churchyards. My local church has a path straight through the middle on the way to the childrens playground. I like to think that the sound of childrens laughter makes a churchyard more uplifting.
Cello
Keeping to the paths is one thing - using the headstones as "play" equipment is quite another!
Our family has fallen foul of the notorious "topple test" legislation and have had to have a brand new stone erected for our parents - something you don't expect to have to do when the original stone was only set in 1973!
Stoney
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all comes down to heath n safety now
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There was also a case in which the council flattened headstones in a graveyard and were ordered to re-instate them at the councils expense as they had no authority to remove the headstones.
However I would suggest instead of simply moaning take action.
I was annoyed when a local Baptist Church cleared their burial ground
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~framland/Ossett/obmi1.htm
I have since negotiated to take care of the burial ground myself even though none of my ancestors are buried there.
Cheers
Guy
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Well done Guy :)
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I know I am a late comer to this thread, but regarding the war graves that were in Upwell Bsptist Cemetrty Norfolk, I have contacted the Commonwealth War Graves Commisson and they have confirmed that all war dead where exhumed and placed in new burial ground at the end of last year. Currently their online records are out of date.
I know that doesn't make what was done right or any better.
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This is rediculous. Where are the parents and why are children left to "play" in a place of respect and rememberance anyway??
My Aunt in the Uk won a battle with Billingham Council who wanted to remove all the headstones in St Cuthbert's church Billingham and place them all along the inside wall..!!
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What annoys me about headstones being removed is that people paid the church, in some cases life savings, to have a stone put in place for a loved one. Then years down the line somebody thinks they have the right to move the headstone to another location.
I worked for a company and all we did was churches and the disregard show to some graves was disgusting. Not by the firm I worked for but by I the people of the Church.
And like someone said in an earlier post, removing headstones to use as footpaths that makes my blood boil!!
The church has no right in removing the stones unless they are so un-safe they need to be removed. But was is stopping the church getinglittle crosses made up with the name of the dead inscribed so at least the person is still remembered?
I have a lot of opinion on this subject but I shall leave it at that for now...:)
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I want to find the grave of my ancestor Thomas Musgrave who died in America.
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Sometimes this link is useful - have you tried here:-
http://www.findagrave.com/
Or post all the details of Thomas Musgrave on the US Board - someone may be able to help.
Regards.
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Thanks. I know he came to America in 1886 and is on the 1900 census in North Fayette, PA aged 72 but I want to find his death. He is not on the 1910 census and his daughter whom he was living with in 1900 is living with her daughter Mary Saix. I might start a new thread as it is just his death I am after. It explains why for years I was unable to find a death in England and that was before I found he had emigrated.
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Or have you checked to see if there is an RAOGK volunteer for Allegheny County that could do a look up for you ? They are usually pretty good. ;)
If you post the info on the USA Board - I can think of someone who offered to do some look ups in Allegheny County a few months ago and can ask him to take a look at it for you - how about that ?
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I might check that out. I am desperate to find his death record now. I know PA started civil registration in January 1906. He may have died inbetween June 1900 and January 1906 but I hope he died inbetween January 1906 and April 1910 as his death would have to have been registered.
Oh yes it was 1 June 1900 I think the census was taken. 110 years ago today.
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This must be your man - would you like me to ask about him for you ?
1900 North Fayette, Allegheny, Pennsylvania
Robert Sutherland 44 and Elizabeth Sutherland 48
James Sutherland 12 Son Born dec 1888
William Sutherland 42 Brother
Mary Ellen Wilson 15 Step-Daughter
Thomas Musgrave 72 Father In Law. Immigrated 1887
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Hi
Yes. That is my 3xgreat grandfather. I found his passenger list. If I start a fresh thread I might get more help in tracking his death.
Yes you could ask him for me.
Ben
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Ok Ben, happy to do that for you.
Fingers crossed. I will get back to you.
Regards. ;D
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I have just started a thread n the US board.
I want to find the death and grave of Thomas Musgrave. No pun intended.
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It`s a shame when grave stones fall and break :( and hopefuly nobody gets trapped. Safety must come first but so should recognition of the danger.
A lot of gravestones are over 100 years old and who is responsible???.
Not everyone searches their family history.
Councils should lie the very old ones down on the apropriate grave and enforce a height limit for the new.
I played in the graveyard when I was younger , we didn`t push stones over and always walked in the space at the bottom of the graves.. There is 2FT between each grave and between each row.
The cemateries should be safe for anyone , children included to wander around . It`s a good place to look around and enjoy the peace and tranquility , because when you`re dead you will be underground and stuck 8).
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It seems that several councils are now pushing over old gravestones incase they fall on people.
This is fair enough IF they are dangerous (although I find "felled" stones a VERY sad sight!!) but I wish they would push them FACE UP.....at least then we could still read them!!
:'(
JJ
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Well in Norwich, they took down old gravestones and used them to line a path for the opening of a new shopping centre!
Sorry, but that is just DISRESPECTFUL!!!!!
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Hello All,It is sad when grave stones either fall down or are laid down,but If the graveyard is in council care and the grave has no known ownership, it is possible for you to take over ownership and care for the grave.I know this can be done as i put a lady in Denmark in touch with the council in Aylesbury Bucks,she now has the ownership of the grave.Sadly its not just the graves that need looking after but also the cemetery themselves,councils tend to the municipal cemetery's,but churches rely on volunteers to help with gardening,this is something some of you may like to consider.
with regards,Diarmuid.
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Our local village churchyard is now looked after by the council. I was saddened to see that it had been looking rather neglected previously, with a lot of headstones lying flat, including my own grandparents.
On a recent visit, I was pleased to see an improvement in the appearance of the churchyard and even more so when I discovered my grandparents headstone had been repaired and is now upright once again!
justmej
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In response to pushing over gravestones so as not to cause a danger - in torquay they have done the opposite and jacked them up with scaffolding